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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don't agree Danielle’s proposition
that ‘</span></font>arguments <font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(about matrilineal
descent) </span></font>are no longer valid (because) we are in the 21st century
with the benefits of genetics/dna.’ <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>An Orthodox Jew will assure us that God's law
about who is a Jew does not depend on genetics. Of course you can reject that
approach but you can't just say the old rules don't apply. It is a matter
of belief - did God tell us that or not? The concern of the orthodox is
that once we start to change the rules to suit us, we have changed the nature
of Judaism. If one person is allowed to change the rules, so can we all,
leading to fragmentation and anarchy. And we certainly see that fragmentation
in the Jewish communities of today so, to that extent, that orthodox prediction
is accurate. We even see it within the orthodox communities in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> where
one orthodox rabbi will declare that conversions by another orthodox rabbi must
be treated retrospectively as invalid.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A less orthodox Jew will ‘explain’
that the reason for matrilineal descent is that the mother creates the
atmosphere, the practices and procedures in the household simply because she is
in the home more often than the father. She creates the Jewish home which
is the foundation of the Jewish identity for those who are born Jewish. This
may be changing in some of our societies but it is still unusual to find a
household where the father creates the home and the mother is out at work.
The DNA argument has no traction with that view either.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Then we have the view that most Ashkenazim
are descended from the Khazars, but not from any of the 12 tribes – so what
does the genetic argument say there, I wonder?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Who is a Jew is an age-old unanswerable
question. I see two different ways to answer and (of course, being Jewish)
I answer this question by posing other two questions. The first approach,
which many are taking in this discussion is, ‘<i><span style='font-style:
italic'>How do others see me</span></i>?’ or ‘<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Who will accept me’?</span></i> The
second question, which I prefer, is ‘<i><span style='font-style:italic'>who
do I believe I am</span></i>?’<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The British court case is a red herring because
our United Synagogue foolishly allowed us to ask English judges to decide who
is a Jew. Not surprisingly, their answer has not satisfied anyone. Our
community as a whole agrees that we need to get this changed, but surprised surprise
we have not been able to agree on how we want to change it. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It seems unfair that those of us who are
born Jewish get a ‘free pass’ in that they don't have to
believe or act Jewish whereas those of us who want to join from outside can be presented
with an extreme, almost unattainable, standard. I find this idea that conversions
can be invalidated retrospectively or endorsed as ‘<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>not effective outside Israel’</span></i> an
abomination but in the confines of strict orthodoxy, particularly with the
anxiety to preserve their way of life from outside influences, it makes a weird
kind of sense. And if your objective is to preserve the Jewish people, we
have to concede that this method has its flaws but is working better than the progressive
approach<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don't think we can learn much from comparisons
with how other groups operate because British, Australians, Greeks, Syrians, Russians
and others don't see themselves as a race or as a religion. There may be
religious elements in their self definitions, but they are really about nationality.
The Native Indians and similar groups who might offer an interesting comparison
have no country of their own and are sadly fast disappearing. Israel was
conceived as a homeland for all Jews, hence the Law of return which sits
uneasily with religious controls which were will ceded by Ben Gurion and others
60 years ago, not realising the havoc that it would bring today. I think
that the only near comparison is that of the Tibetan community, now in Diaspora.
This is why the Dalai Lama has expressed such interest in how we Jews managed
to retain our identity without a homeland. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When I read Rabbi Shochet’s article I
thought he was bonkers. I could only think that he had been invited to
write an article that week and having no special ideas about what he wanted to
say looked for something provocative, not realising he would be taken too
seriously. He has since been roundly criticised by just about everybody in
the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region>
and backtracked very quickly. WE don’t need to take this seriously.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree with isi leibler that ‘There
is a desperate need to reverse Haredi control of state instrumentalities’.
But I also think that it is too late. The demography is clearly against
the non-orthodox which we see for example from the general move to the right in
Israeli politics. For so long as orthodox families have 10 children from
the age of marriage at say 19 and less orthodox families have three or four
children starting at the age of 28 or later, it doesn't take long for the
orthodox to be an increasing majority and to be <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>entitled</span></b> to democratic control. What we see in <st1:City
w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:City> is but a precursor for the whole of <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
(It is only half tongue in cheek that I have suggested a four state solution because
we could then have Gaza, Palestinian West Bank, a Jewish theocracy of the Jewish
West Bank, Jerusalem & Bnei Brak, and the non observant will keep the
beaches and Ashkelon Tel Aviv Haifa etc which is all they want anyway (ask the average
tel aviv resident when they last saw Jerusalem – the answer is usually a
number measured in years.))<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><em><i><font size=3 color=olive
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:olive'>Barry</span></font></i></em></st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=2 color=olive
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:olive'>Barry</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
size=2 color=olive face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:olive'> Abrahamson</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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