[NGFP-BookClub] The Elephant in the Room

[ruth gavison]

David and George illustrate one of the main dangers in discussing the types
of issues we are discussing here.  We want to be clear and sharp in our
identification of thorny issues; we want not to ignore important and
dangerous processes.  But when we concentrate on these issues we sometimes
forget the complex full picture. 
 
Yes, a democracy and a theocracy are not compatible. Herzl wanted the rabbis
to sit in the synagogues just as the generals were supposed to sit in their
barracks. In Israel neither is the case.  But both democracy and theocracy
are ideal types. Regimes are more or less of either, and this is not an all
or nothing description.  Israel does not have American type separation
between church and religion but in the US (or France) separation is not full
and it cannot be full. When we look at Israel in its totality, it is clearly
not a theocracy.  In fact, some the participants here complain that it is
not Jewish enough!
 
I think Aron and Ilan will concede that despite their (very justified)
objections to the phenomena they describe - we should  NOT move to
conclusions such as that Israel is not better than states that killed Jews
etc.  When all bad things are seen as on the same level of evil - this is
paralyzing and confusing.  Political and social matters become matters of
black and white, good or evil.  In such cases you must be for the good and
against the evil.
 
But what is the good or the evil in our case?
 
Corruption is always bad. So is manipulating and invoking religion to
further one's power.  I do not think Israel is more corrupt than other
places. Human nature is not always what we would hope for. This is human
nature, not Jewish nature. And Jews are definitely not all saints. But we
saw in this course that the relationships between Judaism as religion and as
national identity are very complex. Many of you were the ones who keep
telling me that one cannot join the Jewish people without a religious
ceremony or significance. I am not sure what a full separation between
religion and identity will be here. I have not seen such a full separation
in any Western country.  I do not think it is a possible or a desirable goal
for Israel. We must continue to grapple with detailed arrangements that will
suit Israel.  
 
So we must distinguish between identifying threats to Israel's democracy and
identity and relate to them thoughtfully - and between sweeping descriptions
of the complex reality as beyond repair.
 
I hope that if and when Israel gets to be a corrupt theocracy I too can see
this and act accordingly. At the moment I think that Israel is a mixed and
vibrant society, with an amazing extent of struggling to remain moral and
humanistic and also finds ways to maintain the dist8inctness of being Jewish
in an inclusive way. This is to me the essence of Zionism and the dream of
the Jewish state. I do not think at all that it is a failed effort.   But it
does take the courage and the commitment to think about these things and
seek to make things better.
 
Ruth
 
By the way - in the previous round there was a complaint about people
raising pigs and selling pork in Israel.  The implication was that these
should not be done in the Jewish state. The issue of regulation of pork
selling is a fascinating one. There is a whole book on it by Daphne Barak
-Erez.  Many other complain that regulating pork is religious coercion etc.
The debate just illustrates again the complexity of these public sphere
issues.  Public culture should be Jewish without being religious or
orthodox. But preferably this should be achieved by social and cultural
norms and not by enlisting the force of the state. Same with marriage.   
 
 
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