[NGFP-BookClub] Israel as theocracy

[Danielle James]

Ronny,

I completely agree with Rebekkah.

Orthodox Judaism only accept children born of Jewish mothers to be =

halachically Jewish; not children born of Jewish fathers.  The =

arguments used are no longer valid.  We are in the 21st century with =

the benefits of genetics/dna.  Also, the argument that marrying a =

non-Jewish woman results in children not being raised Jewish, is no =

more valid than that a Jewish woman marrying a non-Jewish man.  Indeed, =

if one goes back far enough, there was not any issue regarding this =

matter.

Being the daughter of a Jewish father, non-Jewish mother, I initially =

took the route of converting Orthodox.  However, I was disturbed by =

some of the beliefs I was required to accept.  In all conscience, I =

could not convert to Orthodox Judaism.  In fact, I felt that if I went =

through the motions, and only motions would they have been, I would =

have been a utter hypocrite.  I would not be a true Jew.  Is that what =

is required ...?

I turned to Progressive Judaism, and converted.  The synagogue I attend =

functions efficiently due to the effort of women converts; indeed, =

converts with no Jewish blood at all. These women are more committed to =

the ideals of Judaism than many halachical Jews.

Look at other groups.

Yes, Britain accepts you if you have a "grandparent" stamp - one =

grandparent of British birth.

I believe that to be accepted as native American, one only has to be =

1/6 native American.

Australian indigenous people are accepted as indigenous if they have an =

established blood connection to their group. As Indigenous peoples have =

a complex system of connections, this means a person may have only had =

a distant indigenous forebear for them to be recognised as belonging to =

a particular group.

Weren't the original ideals of a Jewish state based on it being =

secular?  Weren't the Orthodox Jews initially against the idea of any =

Jewish state?  Every recognised religion goes through evolution.  Why =

is it that Orthodoxy, and Orthodoxy alone, determines who and who is =

not Jewish in Israel?

Danielle




On 16/02/2010, at 1:10 PM, Ronny Schnapp wrote:

> Rebekkah, there is a difference between someone who is born =

> halachically Jewish, but chooses not to be=A0non-observant (or chooses =

> to be involved in a non-orthodox congregation, etc.) and someone who =

> wishes to join the Jewish people via conversion.
> The first person remains Jewish forever. The latter is only considered =

> Jewish by one part of the Jewish people: this is a reality which Prof =

> Gavison is pointing out, without saying that she agrees with it.
> I have heard first hand stories of converts who approached Reform =

> rabbis for conversion and were told to go the Orthodox route in order =

> to be accepted by the entire Jewish people. In other words, there is a =

> necessity to - so to speak - cater to the highest common denominator, =

> rather than the lowest.
> Regarding the Law of Return, I belive Switzerland, France, Greece and =

> numerous other countries have similar laws allowing citizenship to =

> grandchildren of citizens of those countries. In fact, I know someone =

> who was drafted into the Swiss Army (they have compulsory conscription =

> like Israel) even though he had never in his life been to Switzerland! =

> (he received an exemption on this basis). So it is not all that simple =

> - all countries favour their own.
> Today in Australia, even if one was born in Australia they do not =

> receive automatic citizenship unless at least one parent is Australian =

> and they live in Australia...
>
> From: Rebekah Isaacs <risaacs80 at gmail.com>
> To: ngfp-bookclub at lists.ngfp.org
> Sent: Tue, 16 February, 2010 11:31:21 AM
> Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Israel as theocracy
>
> I found the arguments which justifies the law of return convincing. =

> Jews have the right to self determination like any other group. The =

> international community enshrined this in the partition. The fact that =

> Palestinians do not YET have their own state, does not negate Israel's =

> rights. As you say, part of the reason for this is their own rejection =

> of partition. And if Israel is the place where Jews have the right to =

> self-determination, then certainly they have the right to determine =

> who can immigrate. There is no contradiction between this and =

> democracy. Even in Quebec, there is preference to French-speaking =

> immigrants. So far, so good.
>
> Where you lost me, and where Israel loses me is on the conversion =

> issue. Firstly, you yourself say (both in postings here) and in your =

> article that theocracy is incompatible with democracy. Determining =

> nationality based on religion means the theocrats, not the democrats =

> are in charge. This sentence in your Gavison-Medan document really =

> blew me away:
>
> At the same time, I reassert my recommendation regarding the Ne=92eman =

> Committee,=A0independent of Return or the population registry. There is =

> only one way of joining the=A0Jewish people that is acceptable to all =

> streams, and that is the Orthodox way. This is a=A0fact. No law =

> promulgated by the state and no political agreement is going to =

> change=A0this. Israel is home to a large Orthodox community. It will be =

> easier for someone who=A0plans to live in Israel to become Jewish in a =

> manner that is also recognized by
> halakha.
>
> So the whole theoretical discussion of the first article gets thrown =

> out the window right here, because despite your trying to avoid it, =

> eventually you cave in and say the Orthodox have a monopoly in =

> determining Jewish status in Israel.=A0Essentially what you are saying =

> is that Israel is an Orthodox theocracy and anyone planning to move =

> there better get used to the idea. Sure you propose we recognize =

> Jewish conversion outside the country before immigration, but once you =

> move to the Israeli theocracy, too bad. And in fact, under the current =

> law, conversions outside the country aren't recognized. In short, =

> Israel extends Orthodox theocracy to the whole Jewish world. So tell =

> me, how does the law of return symbolize Israel is the homeland of the =

> whole Jewish people, not just the Orthodox branch?
>
> Let me make my point with a different perspective. Last week many =

> people (and you yourself in your articles) make the claim that the =

> Holocaust is one of the main justifications for the right of Israel to =

> exist. Had there been an Israel prior to WWII the Jews of Europe could =

> have been saved. Well, not quite! Under the current law, and even with =

> your amendments, many people defined as Jews under the Nuremberg laws =

> would not have been allowed to immigrate to Israel. So which is it? Is =

> Israel the home of the Jews or only for a certain subclass of Jews who =

> constitute a minority of the Jewish people?
>
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