From luka.girardi at aon.at Sat Apr 1 15:51:33 2006 From: luka.girardi at aon.at (Luka Girardi) Date: Sat Apr 1 18:34:26 2006 Subject: AW: [NGFP-BookClub] On Shfoch and EMY - from avigdor shinan In-Reply-To: <003b01c654a1$d5cdcce0$fa224084@default> Message-ID: <20060401204602.E9AACBC466@moriarty.zoteca.com> Hello all, shavua tov. EMY [1] Since when is this song incorporated in the Haggadah? 1. I do not know since when, but in Renaisance I think it already was included. [2] Is it found in all Haggadot of all Jewish communities? 2. It is found both in Ashkenazi and Sephardi haggadot and there are diifferent vernacular versions from both european communities, ashkenazi and sephardi, as well as from oriental ones. [3] What is it doing in the concluding part of the Haggadah which mainly deals with the future (building the Temple, slaughtering death, Next Year in Jerusalem etc.)? 3. I can't relate it to any messianic hope. For me personally it is a song for the end of seder when everybody is satisfied and just about to fall asleep guaranteeing a lively and merry conclusion of the seder. [4] Is this song more than a number-game intended for kids? 4. It emphasises the belief in the one G'd. The higher numbers seem to be more than a game for kids. At least for myself midaya, and kochvaya have always been somehow enigmatic. [5] Why stop at "13 ME YODEA"? What is ,if any, the problem with other numbers as well? 5. In my family 13 is considered a happy number, unlike its significance among the non-Jews. Can anyone help me explaining this? [6] Are you familiar with parallel songs in other cultures? 6. No idea about other cultures. There are numerous verancular versions of EMY. In this context let me point to some differences (there are many more). In Spanish: dos Moshe y Aron - in Hebrew: shene luchot haberit In Italian some sing Uno e il Dio nostro che in cele e la terra sta (like the hebrew original), whereas others say Uno e il Creador baruch hu ubaruch shemo (like in the Spanish version: uno ez el Criador baruch hu ubaruch shemo) My additional questions: shelosha asar midaya: in the English translations which have been put on the NGFP website midaya are attributes of God; a German version says dreizehn sind die Sitten - thirteen are the manners. Can anyone explain what midaya can be? What are the cochvaya? Why some Aramaic words in thsi Hebrew song? Shavua tov. Luka -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060401/b2f701d2/attachment-0001.htm From MTal at huc.edu Sun Apr 2 11:39:48 2006 From: MTal at huc.edu (Tal, Margalit) Date: Sun Apr 2 11:59:40 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] FW: The American counting folk song for children References: <0339279484D4314F90BBD1775E1F1EB9012E7691@cnex.huc.int> Message-ID: <0339279484D4314F90BBD1775E1F1EB901BA1CD4@cnex.huc.int> ________________________________ From: Tal, Margalit Sent: Fri 3/31/2006 2:16 PM To: 'ngfp-bookclub-bounces@lists.ngfp.org' Subject: The American counting folk song for children Shalom, It is a quick note, from work, before I have to pick up my sons from guitar lessons and the baseball field. I have learned this old folk song from a CD for children. Since this CD was a fundraiser for Children's AIDS Foundation it had various artist singing. This Old Man was sung with nonchalant twang by Bob Dylan. Since I did not grow up in this country (U.S.,) I've learned quite a few songs and poems from my childrens' tapes, CD's and books singin together with them. The words are enclosed, Shabat shalom from Margalit Tal This old man, he played one He played knick-knack on my thumb [some versions use "drum"] With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played two He played knick-knack on my shoe With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played three He played knick-knack on my knee With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played four He played knick-knack on my door With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played five He played knick-knack on my hive With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played six He played knick-knack on my sticks With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played seven He played knick-knack up in heaven With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played eight He played knick-knack on my gate With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played nine He played knick-knack on my spine [some versions use "line" here] With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home This old man, he played ten He played knick-knack once ag'n [some versions use "on my hen" here] With a knick-knack paddywhack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060402/9b98b6c1/attachment.htm From Masandslb at aol.com Sun Apr 2 15:30:27 2006 From: Masandslb at aol.com (Masandslb@aol.com) Date: Sun Apr 2 15:44:21 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] FW: The American counting folk song for children Message-ID: <2ad.1051463.31618053@aol.com> more counting songs. the obvious one in the english speaking world is "The 12 days of christmas", which builds up exactly the same way as echad mi yodeyah, although without any link between the different items sent. in the UK there is a trade union song from the 19th century which begins "I'll give you one-oh, green grow the rushes-oh", recalling different elements of trades union history. I think the tune to this one may also have been used for other counting songs. sarah b. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060402/b813908c/attachment.htm From Masandslb at aol.com Sun Apr 2 15:35:24 2006 From: Masandslb at aol.com (Masandslb@aol.com) Date: Sun Apr 2 15:44:21 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - why have songs at the end of the seder? Message-ID: <335.1670ede.3161817c@aol.com> ....because everyone's exhausted (even if they're elated too) and it's good to have a pick-me-up before getting down to tidying before you can go to bed!! ...because it's nice to have something for the young and young-at-heart members of the seder table to give them a good send-off and a good 'memory' of the evening. ...because singing is easier to remember than speech, so there is a learning element as well. sarah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060402/b7e2db19/attachment.htm From shosh_mz at netvision.net.il Sun Apr 2 16:56:37 2006 From: shosh_mz at netvision.net.il (Shoshana Michael-Zucker) Date: Sun Apr 2 18:34:58 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Echad mi yodea References: <000001c65516$779d8050$c619a652@p4872b715737a4> Message-ID: <003101c65697$eeeeb6b0$0300000a@Shoshana> In an American Reforn temple I remember learning "nine are the holidays." Apparently, months of pregnancy could not be discussed with children but we never came up with a conclusive list of nine holidays. Batya wrote about a "Cochin" version found in the Cairo Geniza. Please clarify. Cochin is in India (and there is/was a Jewish community there) but Cairo is in Egypt and I though most of the documents there recorded the local communities (those using the Eretz Yisrael custom and those using the Babylonian custom). Shoshana -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shoshana Michael-Zucker, Translations Levona 7/6 Kfar Sava 44243 Israel Tel. +972-9-767-5835 Fax. +972-9-766-2855 Cell: +972-54-455-6049 email: translations@ortav.com shosh_mz@netvision.net.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060402/7fcd5ab8/attachment.htm From baruch at baruch.nl Sun Apr 2 16:02:50 2006 From: baruch at baruch.nl (Robbert Baruch) Date: Sun Apr 2 18:34:58 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - why have songs at the end of the seder? In-Reply-To: <335.1670ede.3161817c@aol.com> Message-ID: <007901c65690$6bc9e270$6b35fea9@computer> Some say the seder is a Greek invention. It follows the steps of a symposium, and see Plato's description of such a happening. Some discussion, wine, good food, reclining and theology in a pleasant athmosphere. Maybe even those rabbi's at BB had one, which made them take so long. Afikoman is a greek word for dessert, even though those ancients arguably did other things after their theological discussions than giving presents to the children and prepare for the afterseider. Robbert _____ From: ngfp-bookclub-bounces@lists.ngfp.org [mailto:ngfp-bookclub-bounces@lists.ngfp.org] On Behalf Of Masandslb@aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:35 PM To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - why have songs at the end of the seder? ....because everyone's exhausted (even if they're elated too) and it's good to have a pick-me-up before getting down to tidying before you can go to bed!! ...because it's nice to have something for the young and young-at-heart members of the seder table to give them a good send-off and a good 'memory' of the evening. ...because singing is easier to remember than speech, so there is a learning element as well. sarah. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060402/3b89c9e3/attachment.htm From shinan at mscc.huji.ac.il Mon Apr 3 10:25:46 2006 From: shinan at mscc.huji.ac.il (Avigdor Shinan) Date: Mon Apr 3 10:15:51 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - a short note from avigdor Message-ID: <00db01c6572a$800286d0$48c34084@gh> shalom shalom i got letters from Batya, Luka, Shoshanah, Sarah and Margalit regarding Echad Mi Yodeah. I intend to summerize different issue concerning this Piyyut later this week, but meanwhile let me tell you that the text from Cochin served as a song for weddings and that is has only 12 parts (i.e. it ends with the 12 tribes of Iarael - Shivtaya).Does this fact help to solve any of the riddles connected with this Piyyut? More on EMY - later this week. shalom avigdor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060403/59721a75/attachment.htm From aon.962614846 at aon.at Mon Apr 3 13:21:45 2006 From: aon.962614846 at aon.at (aon.962614846@aon.at) Date: Mon Apr 3 15:27:40 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - a short note from avigdor In-Reply-To: <00db01c6572a$800286d0$48c34084@gh> References: <00db01c6572a$800286d0$48c34084@gh> Message-ID: <1144084905.443159a97ad71@webmail.aon.at> Hello all, I have done some "research" and have found that the value in gematria of the word echad (one) is: 13. The thirteenth stanza is like the first one about God (13 attributes). Perhaps that is at least one of the reasons for counting up to the number thirteen: the beginning and the end is the One. Whereas the wedding song ends with the twelve tribes (wishing many children?), the seder song ends so to speak with a more theological stanza. I also found an answer to my own question about the 11 stars: they are the stars in Joseph's dream (his brothers), which reminds me of a Spanish version that says: 11 are the tribes without Joseph, 12 are the tribes with Joseph. The rendering of midaya as "Sitten", manners, still remains an open question. Luka ----- Original von: Avigdor Shinan : ...let me tell you that the text from Cochin served as a song for weddings and that is has only 12 parts (i.e. it ends with the 12 tribes of Iarael - Shivtaya).Does this fact help to solve any of the riddles connected with this Piyyut? ------------------------------------------- Versendet durch aonWebmail (webmail.aon.at) From maklein at klein2.freeserve.co.uk Mon Apr 3 12:16:25 2006 From: maklein at klein2.freeserve.co.uk (michele klein) Date: Mon Apr 3 15:27:40 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - a short note from avigdor In-Reply-To: <00db01c6572a$800286d0$48c34084@gh> Message-ID: Shalom, I have been following the correspondence with great interest, but have been too busy to reply (my children?s weddings and my mom-in-law?s funeral and shiva). When looking for images of pregnancy and childbirth in the illustrated haggadot (I found plenty), one of my sources was the EMY song. I remember reading (and I can?t find the source just now) that the nine months is the one topic that isn?t somehow embedded in Jewish tradition. Of course without childbirth there would be no Judaism and so this song, in addition to entertaining the kids, teaches that procreation is as important as the 5 books of Torah and the 6 books of Mishnah and the 7 days of Shabbat, the 10 commandments, and the 13 divine attributes... Childbirth was especially important in times of massacres when the continuity of the people was in severe danger, time and again in Jewish history. I found a kabbalistic website, http://www.inner.org/stages/stages2.htm, which may contribute to understanding the numbers in the Haggadah and perhaps also EMY: ?The Torah itself provides us with the necessary prototypes for conceptually ordering our reality. These models differ according to the number of corresponding levels one is interested in articulating. For instance, should one wish to express four levels of correspondence, the classic frame of reference in Kabbalah is the ineffable four-letter Name of G-d (Havayah); ten levels always relate back to the ten Divine emanations (sefirot) within Creation; thirteen levels, to the thirteen attributes of Divine mercy; and so on. (The importance of such models as educational tools is hinted at in the Passover Haggadah, the essential Jewish primer, which concludes with a song entitled "Who knows one?" delineating in verse thirteen models of correspondence, ranging from one G-d to the thirteen attributes of His mercy.)? Michele Klein Author of ?A Time to Be Born: Customs and Folklore of Jewish Birth?, Jewish Publication Society, 1998, 2000. on 3/4/06 17:25, Avigdor Shinan at shinan@mscc.huji.ac.il wrote: > shalom shalom > i got letters from Batya, Luka, Shoshanah, Sarah and Margalit regarding Echad > Mi Yodeah. I intend to summerize different issue concerning this Piyyut later > this week, but meanwhile let me tell you that the text from Cochin served as a > song for weddings and that is has only 12 parts (i.e. it ends with the 12 > tribes of Iarael - Shivtaya).Does this fact help to solve any of the riddles > connected with this Piyyut? > More on EMY - later this week. > shalom > avigdor > > > > ________________________________________________ > Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org > Course Reading Assignments: > http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments > Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ > Mailing List Settings: http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060403/c457a538/attachment.htm From permuth at intelnet.net.gt Mon Apr 3 18:31:24 2006 From: permuth at intelnet.net.gt (Mario Permuth) Date: Mon Apr 3 21:49:48 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - a short note from avigdor In-Reply-To: <1144084905.443159a97ad71@webmail.aon.at> References: <00db01c6572a$800286d0$48c34084@gh> <1144084905.443159a97ad71@webmail.aon.at> Message-ID: <714D0838-7CB5-40B6-965A-5542B234ED4F@intelnet.net.gt> The final value of 13 is 4 . The beginning and the end is one, when it arrives to 10. 1 is the universe - 2 is the couple - 3 is the universe + the human beings - 4 is risk & danger (2+2) Regards, Mario On 3/04/2006, at 11:21, aon.962614846@aon.at wrote: Hello all, I have done some "research" and have found that the value in gematria of the word echad (one) is: 13. The thirteenth stanza is like the first one about God (13 attributes). Perhaps that is at least one of the reasons for counting up to the number thirteen: the beginning and the end is the One. Whereas the wedding song ends with the twelve tribes (wishing many children?), the seder song ends so to speak with a more theological stanza. I also found an answer to my own question about the 11 stars: they are the stars in Joseph's dream (his brothers), which reminds me of a Spanish version that says: 11 are the tribes without Joseph, 12 are the tribes with Joseph. The rendering of midaya as "Sitten", manners, still remains an open question. Luka ----- Original von: Avigdor Shinan : ...let me tell you that the text from Cochin served as a song for weddings and that is has only 12 parts (i.e. it ends with the 12 tribes of Iarael - Shivtaya).Does this fact help to solve any of the riddles connected with this Piyyut? ------------------------------------------- Versendet durch aonWebmail (webmail.aon.at) ________________________________________________ Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org Course Reading Assignments: http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/ reading_assignments Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ Mailing List Settings: http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp- bookclub From bhaber at presentartifacts.com Mon Apr 3 21:46:51 2006 From: bhaber at presentartifacts.com (bhaber@presentartifacts.com) Date: Mon Apr 3 21:49:48 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - a short note from avigdor Message-ID: <20060404014651.05FD62F956@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Hi, This is Beth, I am an artist and writer living in the Hudson Valley of New York.I too have been submerged by the demands of recent life events, but have found the discourse so interesting and enriching. This latest interchange recalled to mind a poem I wrote a few seasons back on EMY- so I am sending it along - Numbers a multitude of memories join us at our time-table where again we set our hearts on schedule and in order forgoing multiple of choice; choose chose chosen a break from the hieroglyphs coding our keyboards we pause from selecting all tonight we put aside polymath gods of Egypt in their many configurations to follow one story one path one people for an evening or two together on a singular track a sea parts again and we sing our trinity ehad mi yodeah who knows one ? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michele klein" > To: "NGFP Book Club" > Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - a short note from avigdor > Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:16:25 +0300 > > > Shalom, > I have been following the correspondence with great interest, but have been > too busy to reply (my children?s weddings and my mom-in-law?s funeral and > shiva). > When looking for images of pregnancy and childbirth in the illustrated > haggadot (I found plenty), one of my sources was the EMY song. I remember > reading (and I can?t find the source just now) that the nine months is the > one topic that isn?t somehow embedded in Jewish tradition. Of course without > childbirth there would be no Judaism and so this song, in addition to > entertaining the kids, teaches that procreation is as important as the 5 > books of Torah and the 6 books of Mishnah and the 7 days of Shabbat, the 10 > commandments, and the 13 divine attributes... Childbirth was especially > important in times of massacres when the continuity of the people was in > severe danger, time and again in Jewish history. > > I found a kabbalistic website, http://www.inner.org/stages/stages2.htm, > which may contribute to understanding the numbers in the Haggadah and > perhaps also EMY: > ?The Torah itself provides us with the necessary prototypes for conceptually > ordering our reality. These models differ according to the number of > corresponding levels one is interested in articulating. For instance, should > one wish to express four levels of correspondence, the classic frame of > reference in Kabbalah is the ineffable four-letter Name of G-d (Havayah); > ten levels always relate back to the ten Divine emanations (sefirot) within > Creation; thirteen levels, to the thirteen attributes of Divine mercy; and > so on. (The importance of such models as educational tools is hinted at in > the Passover Haggadah, the essential Jewish primer, which concludes with a > song entitled "Who knows one?" delineating in verse thirteen models of > correspondence, ranging from one G-d to the thirteen attributes of His > mercy.)? > > Michele Klein > Author of ?A Time to Be Born: Customs and Folklore of Jewish Birth?, Jewish > Publication Society, 1998, 2000. > > > on 3/4/06 17:25, Avigdor Shinan at shinan@mscc.huji.ac.il wrote: > > > shalom shalom > > i got letters from Batya, Luka, Shoshanah, Sarah and Margalit regarding > Echad > > Mi Yodeah. I intend to summerize different issue concerning this Piyyut > later > > this week, but meanwhile let me tell you that the text from Cochin served > as > > a > > song for weddings and that is has only 12 parts (i.e. it ends with the 12 > > tribes of Iarael - Shivtaya).Does this fact help to solve any of the > riddles > > connected with this Piyyut? > > More on EMY - later this week. > > shalom > > avigdor > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org > > Course Reading Assignments: > > http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments > > Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ > > Mailing List Settings: > http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org > Course Reading Assignments: > http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments > Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ > Mailing List Settings: > http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > From debfred_dsa at hotmail.com Tue Apr 4 11:33:28 2006 From: debfred_dsa at hotmail.com (Debby / Fred) Date: Tue Apr 4 12:22:51 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060404/28675ce5/attachment.htm From MTal at huc.edu Tue Apr 4 22:46:14 2006 From: MTal at huc.edu (Tal, Margalit) Date: Wed Apr 5 10:37:17 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Venice Haggadah 1566 Message-ID: <0339279484D4314F90BBD1775E1F1EB901BA1CDC@cnex.huc.int> OK, the counting song that teaches, reinforces and makes delightful all sorts of tidbits of Jewish knowledge. The number 13 might be either the "13 midot sheha-Torah nidreshet ba-hen" that were summarized by Rabbi Ishmael, i.e. the principles or ways of deriving the laws (halakhah) from the Torah (e.g. mi-kal va-homer); OR The Rambam's 13 principles of faith, as close as we get to the dogma in Judaism: "In their credal form ("I believe with perfect faith that...") Maimonides' "Thirteen Principles" appeared first probably in the Venice Haggadah of 1566. They are found in the Ashkenazi prayer book as an appendix to the regular morning service. Of the many poetic versions, the best known is the popular Yigdal hymn (c. 1300). This hymn has been adopted in practically all rites." (Enc. Jud. CD-ROM) OR 13 midot or qualities that describe G-d's way of presence and action as revealed to Moses: "Adonai, Adonai, El rahum ve-hanun, erekh apayim verav-hesed ve-emet, notser hesed la-alafim, nose avon va-fesha va-hatat, ve-nakeh lo inakeh" ( Shemot, 34:6-7) Margalit Tal, grateful for poetry (mtal@huc.edu) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060404/ab6db023/attachment.htm From shinan at pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il Fri Apr 7 07:03:30 2006 From: shinan at pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il (avigdor shinan) Date: Fri Apr 7 08:29:53 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - last remarks from avigdor shinan Message-ID: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> Shalom to everyone - I found it very interesting that the EMY (Echad Mi Yodea) and the Sefoch piece caused many of you to participate in the discussion, more than - I think - the HLA (Ha Lachma) and other parts of the Haggadah. You (plural) were right regarding the late date of the EMY song, It entered the Haggadah almost at its last stage of development (15th century) but - as some of you noted - was known earlier as a wedding song in the remote community of Cochin. When this song was transferred to Europe, the 13th stanza was added, probably to mock at the Christian belief of the bad luck of the number 13 (something that has to do with the last supper, which was a Seder night!). I think that EMY was added to the Haggadah not only in order to please the children (a good reason by itself) but also as a polemic against Christian dogmas. One is our God (as opposed to the Holy Trinity) and there is not only one Mother but four. A child should be born after 9 months (hinting at the Christian tradition that Maria's pregnancy was much shorter) and everyone should be circumcised (including Jesus [as told in the New Testament], but not his followers!) etc. I do not think that every stanza in this song is really aiming at this point, but when I am asked what is EMY doing in the Haggadah, I usually say that it comes both to entertain the kids and to repeat important and basics elements of the Jewish belief. And some more short remarks: Yes, there are many parallels to such a song in almost every western community, and yes, they are usually intended for kids. The number 13 -I think - speaks of the 13 attributes of God (so the song begins and ends with God), and the 11 are of course the stars in Joseph's dream. One of you described EMY as the Grand finale of the Seder night. Forme it is also the Grand finale of our 5 weeks discussion of the Haggadah. Starting with HLA and BBS, we continued with AOA and Shfoch and ended with EMY. One day some scholar will write an article about the strange combinations of letters which he or she me find in some archives (HLA, EMY etc.) - a proof that the Haggadah never died and each generation added something to this fascinating text! Its time to say Shalom and maybe Lehitraot. I had great 5 weeks and my Seder this night will surely be different from all others thanks to you. I even consider adding a 5th question to Ma Nishtana: Why is this Seder night so different from all other Seder nights! Shalom shalom and Todah Rabbah to all who read our discussion, to those who participated and to Aron and Simcha who so beautifully made our last month so productive. Chag Sameach and Shabbat Shalom Avigdor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060407/6e1a27cd/attachment.htm From atrauring at zoteca.com Fri Apr 7 08:54:55 2006 From: atrauring at zoteca.com (Aron Trauring) Date: Fri Apr 7 08:53:34 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan In-Reply-To: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> References: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> Message-ID: On behalf of the Memorial Foundation and the Nahum Goldmann Fellowship Program, and I am sure I speak in the name of all those who participated, I want to give a heart-felt thanks to Professor Shinan for leading such a fascinating and wonderful course. You have succeeded in making the course interesting, enjoyable and a true educational experience. We all come away with much new material we can share at our Sedarim. Over 500 people from all over the world signed up for the course, Thank you all for participating. Particular thanks to those who shared with us their comments, opinions and insights. After the weekend will be sending out a survey form. Your feedback is important to us to help us continue this program and improve future courses. We will not be sending out the results to the whole list, so don't be concerned about mailbox clutter. Wishing you all Hag Kasher V'Sameach - a happy Passover holiday. From simchashtull at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 10:27:51 2006 From: simchashtull at gmail.com (Simcha Shtull) Date: Sat Apr 8 12:38:26 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] adding my thanks and a cherry on top Message-ID: Dear participants in our NG Online Course, I would like to add my thanks to that of Aron's, to both Prof. Shinan and our participants, both active and silent. We feel not only pleased, but enriched with treasures to bring to our seder this year. I share with those of you who have Flash, sound, and a quick command of Hebrew, a fun little movie being disseminated on the internet: A 30-second seder! http://haggadah.z-kit.com/h.swf We add too, our prayer of hope for the end of all genocide and slavery which tragically continue to play a role in our modern world. Best wishes for a hag sameah to all. Simcha Shtull -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060407/4dcff831/attachment.htm From annbn at 012.net.il Fri Apr 7 12:18:37 2006 From: annbn at 012.net.il (Ann Bar-Neder) Date: Sat Apr 8 12:38:27 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - last remarks from avigdor shinan References: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> Message-ID: <443690DD.000001.03068@XP-F64ED45F22E5> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: endless_sky2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060407/c590ba74/endless_sky2-0001.jpg From yoze at otenet.gr Fri Apr 7 15:04:17 2006 From: yoze at otenet.gr (yoze@otenet.gr) Date: Sat Apr 8 12:38:28 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] PASSOVER WISHES In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I WISH TO ALL OF YOU AND YOUR FAMILIES HAG PESSAH SAMEAH. HAVE A NICE, HAPPY AND JOYFUL PESSAH Lina Soustiel - Errera Athens - Greece From abraunschweig at e2mc.com Sat Apr 8 12:02:57 2006 From: abraunschweig at e2mc.com (Arthur Braunschweig) Date: Sat Apr 8 12:38:29 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - last remarks from avigdor shinan In-Reply-To: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> References: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> Message-ID: <4437DEB1.6080005@e2mc.com> Hi everybody many thanks, Avigdor, for the interesting questions, thoughts and remarks. Concerning your EMY interpretation, that it is to quite some extent making fun ("mock") of christian beliefs, I would like to add an other view. We would all agree that, while many jewish elements can still be found in christianity, there of course are fundamental differences as well. I guess we also agree that at a relatively late time on the seder, it is very nice to sing together, and for both kids and adults it is nice to sing together a "lightweight" song, such as the EMY. (Let's not forget that also in past times, not all jews were fully educated - for many adults, too, singing the EMY was a kind of annual brush-up or "religious miluim".) But if we then start to mention the key elements relating to number one (god, obviously - what else would qualify against it?), two, three (avot), four (imahot - again, what else would qualify, right after the fathers?) - it is obvious that we will name things which are different to christianity. The song by no means had to be made with christianity in mind. It will simply *have* to show differences. My point: To stress that such a song highlights differences to christianity reminds me of falling into a trap one has built himself. Of course, European jewry was mostly persecuted by christians (who else was there around ...?). But to raise within ourselves the old "let's show them we are right" around EMY doesn't seem - at least to me - to add positive feelings to the approaching seder end - rather the contrary. I prefer to enjoy the song for its own positive effect on me and on my kids, i.e. repeating key elements of jewish tradition to numbers - never mind any other religions. PS: at http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Triskaidekaphobia.html you find various sources for the negative image of 13. Choose the one you like best and you know if you should like or dislike the number ... Have a great Pessach Arthur Braunschweig Adliswil-Switzerland avigdor shinan schrieb am 07.04.2006 13:03 h : > > Shalom to everyone - > > I found it very interesting that the EMY (Echad Mi Yodea) and the > Sefoch piece caused many of you to participate in the discussion, more > than - I think - the HLA (Ha Lachma) and other parts of the > > Haggadah. > > You (plural) were right regarding the late date of the EMY song, It > entered the Haggadah almost at its last stage of development (15th > century) but - as some of you noted - was known earlier as a wedding > song in the remote community of Cochin. When this song was transferred > to Europe, the 13th stanza was added, probably to mock at the > Christian belief of the bad luck of the number 13 (something that has > to do with the last supper, which was a Seder night!). > > I think that EMY was added to the Haggadah not only in order to please > the children (a good reason by itself) but also as a polemic against > Christian dogmas. One is our God (as opposed to the Holy Trinity) and > there is not only one Mother but four. A child should be born after 9 > months (hinting at the Christian tradition that Maria's pregnancy was > much shorter) and everyone should be circumcised (including Jesus [as > told in the New Testament], but not his followers!) etc. I do not > think that every stanza in this song is really aiming at this point, > but when I am asked what is EMY doing in the Haggadah, I usually say > that it comes both to entertain the kids and to repeat important and > basics elements of the Jewish belief. > > And some more short remarks: Yes, there are many parallels to such a > song in almost every western community, and yes, they are usually > intended for kids. The number 13 -I think - speaks of the 13 > attributes of God (so the song begins and ends with God), and the 11 > are of course the stars in Joseph's dream. > > One of you described EMY as the Grand finale of the Seder night. Forme > it is also the Grand finale of our 5 weeks discussion of the Haggadah. > Starting with HLA and BBS, we continued with AOA and Shfoch and ended > with EMY. One day some scholar will write an article about the strange > combinations of letters which he or she me find in some archives (HLA, > EMY etc.) - a proof that the Haggadah never died and each generation > added something to this fascinating text! > > Its time to say Shalom and maybe Lehitraot. I had great 5 weeks and my > Seder this night will surely be different from all others thanks to > you. I even consider adding a 5th question to Ma Nishtana: Why is this > Seder night so different from all other Seder nights! > > Shalom shalom and Todah Rabbah to all who read our discussion, to > those who participated and to Aron and Simcha who so beautifully made > our last month so productive. > > Chag Sameach and Shabbat Shalom > > Avigdor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________________________ > Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org > Course Reading Assignments: http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments > Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ > Mailing List Settings: http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > > -- Arthur Braunschweig, Dr.oec.HSG, Managing Partner E2 Management Consulting AG, Sustainability in Business Wehntalerstrasse 3, CH-8057 Z?rich Tel: +41-44-368 50 20 Fax: +41-44-368 50 21 Latest news on E2 project results: http://www.e2mc.com/e_proj_news.htm From mirale65 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 9 00:36:46 2006 From: mirale65 at hotmail.com (Miriam Melmed) Date: Sun Apr 9 13:02:55 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060409/77c440ba/attachment.htm From zsami at telekabel.net.mk Sun Apr 9 14:04:43 2006 From: zsami at telekabel.net.mk (Zdravko Sami) Date: Sun Apr 9 14:11:22 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan References: Message-ID: <003201c65c00$1528d230$83944d50@aa8yqspbicuo52> Dear Prof Shinan and active participants, I was one of the silent ones, but I enjoyed very much all the discussions and comments presented along with various opinions and ideas. Thank you all for enriching my experience of Pesach. Happy Passover !!! Chag Pesach Sameach !! Greetuings to all, Zdravko Sami Macedonia ****************************************** Please note my new e-mail address (I can still receive mail on my old address): zsami@telekabel.net.mk From: Aron Trauring Reply-To: NGFP Book Club To: NGFP Book Club Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 08:54:55 -0400 >On behalf of the Memorial Foundation and the Nahum Goldmann >Fellowship Program, and I am sure I speak in the name of all those >who participated, I want to give a heart-felt thanks to Professor >Shinan for leading such a fascinating and wonderful course. You have > succeeded in making the course interesting, enjoyable and a true >educational experience. We all come away with much new material we >can share at our Sedarim. > >Over 500 people from all over the world signed up for the course, >Thank you all for participating. Particular thanks to those who >shared with us their comments, opinions and insights. > >After the weekend will be sending out a survey form. Your feedback >is important to us to help us continue this program and improve >future courses. We will not be sending out the results to the whole >list, so don't be concerned about mailbox clutter. > >Wishing you all Hag Kasher V'Sameach - a happy Passover holiday. >________________________________________________ >Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: >NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org >Course Reading Assignments: >http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments Course >Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ >Mailing List Settings: >http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar MSN Toolbar Get it now! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________ Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org Course Reading Assignments: http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ Mailing List Settings: http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060409/73360b0f/attachment.htm From analeblsplit at yahoo.com Sun Apr 9 14:11:32 2006 From: analeblsplit at yahoo.com (ana lebl) Date: Sun Apr 9 14:11:24 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060409181132.18750.qmail@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Friends, I was also a silent participant but an active reader. I would like to thank everyone for very interesting and useful share of knowledge, experience, thoughts and insights. I will actively use much of it, as this year I will lead my community's Seder and, thanks to you all, feel less nervous about it and ready to share what I learned from you. Hag Sameah to all! Ana Miriam Melmed wrote: Even though Ii have not been an active participant, I would sincerely like to thank you. I so much enjoyed and learnt and benfitted from the various opinions and ideas. Look fiorward to your next course, and perhaps even participatiiing Chag Kasher v'Sameach Mirale --------------------------------- From: Aron Trauring Reply-To: NGFP Book Club To: NGFP Book Club Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 08:54:55 -0400 >On behalf of the Memorial Foundation and the Nahum Goldmann >Fellowship Program, and I am sure I speak in the name of all those >who participated, I want to give a heart-felt thanks to Professor >Shinan for leading such a fascinating and wonderful course. You have > succeeded in making the course interesting, enjoyable and a true >educational experience. We all come away with much new material we >can share at our Sedarim. > >Over 500 people from all over the world signed up for the course, >Thank you all for participating. Particular thanks to those who >shared with us their comments, opinions and insights. > >After the weekend will be sending out a survey form. Your feedback >is important to us to help us continue this program and improve >future courses. We will not be sending out the results to the whole >list, so don't be concerned about mailbox clutter. > >Wishing you all Hag Kasher V'Sameach - a happy Passover holiday. >________________________________________________ >Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: >NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org >Course Reading Assignments: >http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments Course >Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ >Mailing List Settings: >http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > --------------------------------- FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar MSN Toolbar Get it now! ________________________________________________ Post to NGFP-BookClub by sending email to: NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org Course Reading Assignments: http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/reading_assignments Course Email Archives: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/ Mailing List Settings: http://lists.zoteca.com/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060409/42450804/attachment.htm From TNCORL at aol.com Sun Apr 9 21:51:07 2006 From: TNCORL at aol.com (TNCORL@aol.com) Date: Mon Apr 10 16:11:41 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Thank you Professor Shinan Message-ID: <1f1.4de898fe.316b140b@aol.com> I started out as an active participant but life got in the way and I had to take a back seat for the latter parts of the discussion. I have, however, kept current with the discussions, have found them to be fascinating, and have already shared bits and pieces of what I've learned with my religious school students and their parents. Thank you all for the time and energy and effort you put forth in your research and your lengthy and intriguing comments. Thanks, especially to Professor Shinan for facilitating this course. I hope my schedule will enable me to more fully participate if/when the next opportunity comes along. Carol Lake Mary, Florida -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060409/e7d68663/attachment.htm From luka.girardi at aon.at Mon Apr 10 16:12:35 2006 From: luka.girardi at aon.at (Luka Girardi) Date: Mon Apr 10 16:11:42 2006 Subject: AW: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - last remarks from avigdor shinan In-Reply-To: <001d01c65a32$e81b5d90$c4284084@default> Message-ID: <20060410200539.A5D663C023@moriarty.zoteca.com> Chag Pesach kasher vesameyach to everyone! The course was a really good one and has greatly enriched my knowledge. I hope we shall "meet" in this virtual space again and continue our havruta on another topic. As you might say: o havruta o mituta! Tizku leshanim rabot, tovot uneimot! Luka _____ Von: ngfp-bookclub-bounces@lists.ngfp.org [mailto:ngfp-bookclub-bounces@lists.ngfp.org] Im Auftrag von avigdor shinan Gesendet: Freitag, 07. April 2006 13:04 An: NGFP Book Club Betreff: [NGFP-BookClub] EMY - last remarks from avigdor shinan Shalom to everyone - I found it very interesting that the EMY (Echad Mi Yodea) and the Sefoch piece caused many of you to participate in the discussion, more than - I think - the HLA (Ha Lachma) and other parts of the Haggadah. You (plural) were right regarding the late date of the EMY song, It entered the Haggadah almost at its last stage of development (15th century) but - as some of you noted - was known earlier as a wedding song in the remote community of Cochin. When this song was transferred to Europe, the 13th stanza was added, probably to mock at the Christian belief of the bad luck of the number 13 (something that has to do with the last supper, which was a Seder night!). I think that EMY was added to the Haggadah not only in order to please the children (a good reason by itself) but also as a polemic against Christian dogmas. One is our God (as opposed to the Holy Trinity) and there is not only one Mother but four. A child should be born after 9 months (hinting at the Christian tradition that Maria's pregnancy was much shorter) and everyone should be circumcised (including Jesus [as told in the New Testament], but not his followers!) etc. I do not think that every stanza in this song is really aiming at this point, but when I am asked what is EMY doing in the Haggadah, I usually say that it comes both to entertain the kids and to repeat important and basics elements of the Jewish belief. And some more short remarks: Yes, there are many parallels to such a song in almost every western community, and yes, they are usually intended for kids. The number 13 -I think - speaks of the 13 attributes of God (so the song begins and ends with God), and the 11 are of course the stars in Joseph's dream. One of you described EMY as the Grand finale of the Seder night. Forme it is also the Grand finale of our 5 weeks discussion of the Haggadah. Starting with HLA and BBS, we continued with AOA and Shfoch and ended with EMY. One day some scholar will write an article about the strange combinations of letters which he or she me find in some archives (HLA, EMY etc.) - a proof that the Haggadah never died and each generation added something to this fascinating text! Its time to say Shalom and maybe Lehitraot. I had great 5 weeks and my Seder this night will surely be different from all others thanks to you. I even consider adding a 5th question to Ma Nishtana: Why is this Seder night so different from all other Seder nights! Shalom shalom and Todah Rabbah to all who read our discussion, to those who participated and to Aron and Simcha who so beautifully made our last month so productive. Chag Sameach and Shabbat Shalom Avigdor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ngfp.org/pipermail/ngfp-bookclub/attachments/20060410/511f7b0b/attachment.htm From simchashtull at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:42:34 2006 From: simchashtull at gmail.com (Simcha Shtull) Date: Tue Apr 11 08:54:36 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Evaluation form for NGFP Course Message-ID: <25eb9c6c0604102042w7bfe7ce0j60ad8c7256bcc8b8@mail.gmail.com> Please fill in evaluation form below and mail to: admin@ngfp.org ------------------ Dear participants in the Third NGFP Online Course, On behalf of those of us who organized the course, the Memorial Foundation staff, and all those who participated, we warmly thank Prof. Shinan for leading such a fascinating and erudite course. We all felt enriched, and participants at our Passover sedarim this year will reap the fruits?. It has been a rare and special opportunity for us to receive such attention, knowledge and insight from a scholar of Prof. Shinan's caliber. We all join in thanking him for the generous way in which he shared of his time, his knowledge, insights and humor, and for making possible this interesting and truly educational experience. So that we can continue to improve and offer online courses that respond to our fellows' and readers' needs, we attach an evaluation form below which we hope you will fill out. Whether you were an active or a silent participant, we encourage you to take a few moments to complete this form. For those of you (perhaps the "passive participants") who don't want to fill out the form in its entirety, we would be most appreciative if you send us a short note indicating how often you read the emails sent out, if at all (or return the form by email with item #13 filled in. Any other comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. PLEASE USE A SECOND COLOR (OR UPPER CASE) FOR YOUR RESPONSES AFTER EACH QUESTON. Thanks to all the people who participated at any level. We hope to see you all in a future course. EVALUTION FORM 1. Are you a Nahum Goldmann fellow, a reader of JHOM.com, or listed on one of the other listserves we contacted (and if so which)? 2. Where are you located? (city, country) 3. If you are not an alumnus of the Nahum Goldmann Fellowship program, would you be interested in learning more about the program? 4. Where did you learn about the course? 5. Please choose one of the following: a) I actively took part in the online discussion. b) I audited the course (i.e. regularly read the emailed comments about the materials discussed in the course.) c) None of the above 6. On a scale of 1 (very poor) to 10 (excellent) how would you rate... a) the course content? b) the level of discussion? c) the use of email as the medium for discussion? e) the length of the course? 7. Would you be interested in participating in additional online courses? 8. What other subject areas would you be interested in studying? 9. What aspect of the course's online component (webpages) did you find helpful, if any? 10. What was the best part of the course in your opinion? 11. What was the weakest part of the course? 12. What would you suggest be done differently in subsequent online courses? 13. General comments: -------------------- From atrauring at zoteca.com Tue Apr 11 09:05:26 2006 From: atrauring at zoteca.com (Aron Trauring) Date: Tue Apr 11 09:03:02 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Closing the list Message-ID: <9B04F671-F4B2-4C32-8AE3-3B9829491C88@zoteca.com> We are now closing this list to further posting. Thank you again for your participation, and don't forget to send us your evaluation form. Any further comments and suggestions, along with the evaluation forms, should be sent to: admin@ngfp.org Wishing you all a Happy Passover. From atrauring at zoteca.com Wed Apr 12 15:14:38 2006 From: atrauring at zoteca.com (Aron Trauring) Date: Wed Apr 12 15:12:53 2006 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Course summary available for download now Message-ID: <95CA75C8-2B10-4196-B57A-2EC81AE1D3C3@zoteca.com> Even though we have closed the list, there is a last minute notification we want to send out. Dr. Michele Klein, who participated in the course, was kind enough to share with us a summary of the course she prepared. You can download the file in PDF format here: http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Shinan/images/shinansummary.pdf After Pesach we will permanently post a link to the file and the web- based course archive (there is a link to the archive on the bottom of each email). But we thought this might be extremely useful for those of you who plan to use course materials during your Sedarim. Our heartfelt thanks to Dr. Klein for preparing this and sharing it with us. You can read about one of her books in this article on Jhom.com: http://www.jhom.com/bookshelf/grandma/index.html