From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 2 11:17:41 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 06:17:41 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye: what is going on? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040502051845.021b3680@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_4013531==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tevye lives! That much seems certain from your responses to him. Everyone is responding to his character in ways that also reflect our own personalities. While some of us love and admire the way he integrates everything that happens to him, the way he argues with God and the world even as he adjusts to their requirements, others of us are impatient with how little he manages to change. The same reader can react to him at different moments in opposite ways: in this we probably resemble Tevye's wife and daughters. But Elie's comments on Tevye's "patriarchal" style suggest that we should look at another aspect of this work--not only at the speaker, but at his situation. One of the main subjects of Yiddish and Hebrew literature before Sholem Aleichem created Tevye was the Jewish husband who could not or did not support his wife and family. For example, Mendele Mocher Sforim (the pen name of Sholem Yakov Abramovitch), had written three novels about men who deserted their families. He and other critics of Jewish society attacked the failure or inability of Jewish men to provide for their women and children and to protect them from harm. Naturally, there were political, economic, social, and cultural conditions that determined Jewish family patterns, but Jewish "Enlighteners" and progressives of that day were then insisting that men become more "patriarchal"--more like the husbands in Christian families. Keeping this in mind, we see how Sholem Aleichem tried to emphasize Tevye's male solidity. We meet Tevye not running away from his family, but going home to bring them food. What's more, along the way, he manages to rescue two other women. In his own comic way he becomes a "hero"--the guy who used to prove his heroism by rescuing women in distress. Sholem Aleichem deliberately removed Tevye from the shtetl, set him up as an independent producer and distributor, and put him in charge of a household of dependents to show a Jew doing the job of being a man. Once Tevye was established as a character in the first story, Sholem Aleichem threw his way all the major upheavals and problems of his day: the dynamic rise of capitalism, accompanied by a move to the cities (Menahem Mendl), the ideology of Positivism and personal emancipation (Tsaytl), the revolutionary movement (Hodl), the ideal of secular humanist brotherhood--with the Church reaping the benefits (Chava). The problems seem to escalate. The fourth and fifth daughters face the crisis of materialism. Sholem Aleichem was afraid that the material promise of progress might destroy the Jewish way of life altogether. Whereas the rich Jew in the first episode still "speaks the same language as Tevye" in every sense of the term, the rich Jews in the Shprintse and Beilke episodes don't speak Tevye's language at all. This is not to say that these were the major or the only problems of their day--they were the ones that Sholem Aleichem chose. Sholem Aleichem was aging as Tevye aged. If you look at the dates, you see that these stories were written over a period of twenty years. This work covers a lot of historical ground from the perspective of a single character. How well do you think this approach works to presenting the historical crises of those decades? --=====================_4013531==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tevye lives! That much seems certain from your responses to him. Everyone is responding to his character in ways that also reflect our own personalities. While some of us love and admire the way he integrates everything that happens to him, the way he argues with God and the world even as he adjusts to their requirements, others of us are impatient with how little he manages to change. The same reader can react to him at different moments in opposite ways: in this we probably resemble Tevye's wife and daughters.   

But Elie's comments on Tevye's "patriarchal" style suggest that we should look at another aspect of this work--not only at the speaker, but at his situation. One of the main subjects of Yiddish and Hebrew literature before Sholem Aleichem created Tevye was the Jewish husband who could not or did not support his wife and family. For example, Mendele Mocher Sforim (the pen name of Sholem Yakov Abramovitch), had written three novels about men who deserted their families. He and other critics of Jewish society attacked the failure or inability of Jewish men to provide for their women and children and to protect them from harm. Naturally, there were political, economic, social, and cultural conditions that determined Jewish family patterns, but Jewish "Enlighteners" and progressives of that day were then insisting that men become more "patriarchal"--more like the husbands in Christian families. Keeping this in mind, we see how Sholem Aleichem tried to emphasize Tevye's male solidity. We meet Tevye not running away from his family, but going home to bring them food. What's more, along the way, he manages to rescue two other women. In his own comic way he becomes a "hero"--the guy who used to prove his heroism by rescuing women in distress. Sholem Aleichem deliberately removed Tevye from the shtetl, set him up as an independent producer and distributor, and put him in charge of a household of dependents to show a Jew doing the job of being a man.

Once Tevye was established as a character in the first story, Sholem Aleichem threw his way all the major upheavals and problems of his day: the dynamic rise of capitalism, accompanied by a move to the cities (Menahem Mendl), the ideology of Positivism and personal emancipation (Tsaytl), the revolutionary movement (Hodl), the ideal of secular humanist brotherhood--with the Church reaping the benefits (Chava). The problems seem to escalate. The fourth and fifth daughters face the crisis of materialism. Sholem Aleichem was afraid that the material promise of progress might destroy the Jewish way of life altogether. Whereas the rich Jew in the first episode still "speaks the same language as Tevye" in every sense of the term, the rich Jews in the Shprintse and Beilke episodes don't speak Tevye's language at all. This is not to say that these were the major or the only problems of their day--they were the ones that Sholem Aleichem chose.

Sholem Aleichem was aging as Tevye aged. If you look at the dates, you see that these stories were written over a period of twenty years.
This work covers a lot of historical ground from the perspective of a single character. How well do you think this approach works to presenting the historical crises of those decades?




  --=====================_4013531==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 2 13:36:17 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org) Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 08:36:17 EDT Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye Message-ID: -------------------------------1083501377 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I read the observations of the other participants, I am struck by the fact that Tevye is being analyzed as a contemporary. Perhaps the 'modern language' translation contributes to that. I feel that we may have seen a slightly different man with another translation. We are dealing with a poor, unworldly man, trying to keep his family fed. He has drawn a circle around his world and lives within that boundary. He also lived in a time when the male of the species was king [still a lifestyle in many communities] and not having one son did not help. He found great solace in his religion--it was his safe haven--and compensated him in many ways. His world is a small shtetl somewhere in Anti-Semitic Russia. There is nothing wrong with arguing with G-d, or even being angry with Him/Her. It is a great way to vent, and can even bring you closer. Sholem died in his middle 50's, so his stories reflect his particular place in time. He did foresee many social changes, however, as evidenced in the paths Tevye's daughters chose for themselves. Tevye, literate but uneducated, did the best he was able to, and dreamed his dreams [as most of us do]. Judaism, at its outer edges, has been crumbling for thousands of years, but the core of it still burns brightly albeit the flame is a small one.l Shevuah Tov--have a great week. Miriam Freund -------------------------------1083501377 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As I read the observations of the other participants, I am struck by th= e fact that Tevye is being analyzed as a contemporary.  Perhaps the 'mo= dern language' translation contributes
to that. I feel that we may have seen a slightly different man with ano= ther translation. 
We are dealing with a poor, unworldly man, trying to keep his family fe= d.  He has drawn a circle around his world and lives within that bounda= ry.  He also lived in a time when the male of the species was king [sti= ll a lifestyle in many communities] and not having one son did not help.&nbs= p; He found great solace in his religion--it was his safe haven--and compens= ated him in many ways.  His world is a small shtetl somewhere in Anti-S= emitic Russia.
There is nothing wrong with arguing with G-d, or even being angry with=20= Him/Her.  It is a great way to vent,  and can even bring you close= r.
Sholem died in his middle 50's, so his stories reflect his particu= lar place in time.  He did foresee many social changes, however, as evi= denced in the paths Tevye's daughters chose for themselves.  Tevye= , literate but uneducated, did the best he was able to, and dreamed his drea= ms [as most of us do]. 
Judaism, at its outer edges, has been crumbling for thousands of years,= but the core of it still burns brightly albeit the flame is a small one.l
Shevuah Tov--have a great week.
Miriam Freund  
 
-------------------------------1083501377-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 4 20:29:40 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Abe Bloom) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 15:29:40 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye References: Message-ID: <001601c4320e$256cba30$6401a8c0@dell> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C431EC.9DE63850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable : Re: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye I had the pleasure, in my youth, of having read some of Sholem Aleichem = in Yiddish. The original tom is lacking in the translation. My family = were yiddishistn and all of the children were products of, = coincidentally, of the Sholem Aleichem Folkshulen (ours was from the = Bronx). I had attended the Mittleshul and my sisters went to the higher = level, called, if I recall, hoich shul. My yiddish background may have been due to my father being for many = years a zetzer for some of the early newspapers and for many years with = the Forvetz. My sister, Luba Bloom Condell, performed with the = Folksbiene for many years. The program is wonderful and gives me a chance to recollect and restore = memories, particularly now retired and living in an area devoid of any = yiddishkeit (South Carolina). Keep up this wonderful effort. abe bloom ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C431EC.9DE63850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye
 
I had the pleasure, in my youth, of having read some = of Sholem=20 Aleichem in Yiddish.  The original tom is lacking in the = translation. =20 My family were yiddishistn and all of the children were products of,=20 coincidentally, of the Sholem Aleichem Folkshulen (ours was from the=20 Bronx).  I had attended the Mittleshul and my sisters went to the = higher=20 level, called, if I recall, hoich shul.
 
My yiddish background may have been due to my father = being for=20 many years a zetzer for some of the early newspapers and for many years = with the=20 Forvetz.  My sister, Luba Bloom Condell,   performed with = the=20 Folksbiene for many years.
 
The program is wonderful and gives me a chance to = recollect=20 and restore memories, particularly now retired and living in an area = devoid of=20 any yiddishkeit (South Carolina).
 
Keep up this wonderful=20 effort.           =          =20 abe bloom
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C431EC.9DE63850-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 4 19:14:36 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (matustik07) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 20:14:36 +0200 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] RE: Dear Ruth Wise In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040502051845.021b3680@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_YiZiInIonFHhqsk1o6vgUw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Iam writing a bit late, because I am stil reading about "Tevje,s" life. I borrowed the book from the Jewish Institute here, but I really enjoy reading the e mails from all of you. Specialy I agree with, what Ruth Wise wrote. My native language is not English and I am a bit shy to respond. as a visual artist, do not like speak to much. And also at the moment my Father is at Hospital, and there is not too much time left. I love Sholem,s work for his love of life and I see a deep sentiment and desire to visit such Schtetl, if it would exist.Kyra -=x=- Skontrolované antivírovým programom NOD32 part000.txt - is OK part001.htm - is OK --Boundary_(ID_YiZiInIonFHhqsk1o6vgUw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
 
Iam writing a bit late, because I am stil reading  about "Tevje,s" life. I borrowed the book from the Jewish Institute here, but I really enjoy reading the e mails from all of you. Specialy I agree with, what Ruth Wise wrote. My native language is not English and I am a bit shy to respond. as a visual artist, do not like speak to much. And also at the moment my Father is at Hospital, and there is not too much time left. I love Sholem,s work for his love of life and I see a deep sentiment and desire to visit such Schtetl, if it would exist.Kyra

-=x=-
Skontrolované antivírovým programom NOD32 part000.txt - is OK
part001.htm - is OK

--Boundary_(ID_YiZiInIonFHhqsk1o6vgUw)-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 4 21:11:21 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 16:11:21 EDT Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye Message-ID: <9e.99d1739.2dc952e9@aol.com> -------------------------------1083701481 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like many other readers in this group, I saw Fiddler on Broadway (three times -- Zero Mostel, Herschel Bernardi, and Harry Goz), numerous times on small community theaters (I even acted in one of them -- I played Yente). I read the story after I saw the play but before I saw the movie which I've watched many times. (I also saw Topol in Salah Shabbati but in my case, it was after the watching the movie version of Fiddler.) I thought that the movie Tevye, and to a lesser extent the theater Tevyes, were much more universal in character. The book character was much more identifiably Jewish, not just in the outer trappings but the entire world that Tevye lived in which created him. I watched the movie again just a few months ago with my two teenage daughters (18 and 16) and the main thing that they couldn't understand was why Tevye could not accept his daughter marrying a Russian gentile. I explained that in this environment, the Russians were actively hostile; it would be like one of them marrying an Arab who, even if he himself didn't belong to a terrorist group, was known to be friends with active terrorists! It wasn't merely blind prejudice (although of course that entered into it). I know that Sholom Aleichem is supposed to be a humorist -- the "Yiddish Mark Twain". But, to be honest, I don't find most of his stories to be humorous at all, although Tevye, the Dairyman can be considered to be, if you understand Jewish humor. Yentl, for example, is positively grim though I admit it is beautifully written and very emotionally stirring. Just for the record, I HATED what Barbra Streisand did to give the movie version a happy Hollywood ending! I'm sorry that this has taken me so long to post this. I've been writing it on and off for over a week. I've been very busy writing articles in support of the residents of Gush Katif and running my website, the Jewish Watch Dog. Also, I can't stay on the computer for long periods of time because I have multiple sclerosis so my posts will probably be very sporadic. I do look forward to reading everyone's posts though. Kol tuv, Dafna -------------------------------1083701481 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like many other readers in this group, I saw Fiddler on Broadway (three= times -- Zero Mostel, Herschel Bernardi, and Harry Goz), numerous times on=20= small community theaters (I even acted in one of them -- I played Yente).&nb= sp; I read the story after I saw the play but before I saw the movie which I= 've watched many times.  (I also saw Topol in Salah Shabbati but in my=20= case, it was after the watching the movie version of Fiddler.)
 
I thought that the movie Tevye, and to a lesser extent the theater Tevy= es, were much more universal in character.  The book character was much= more identifiably Jewish, not just in the outer trappings but the entire wo= rld that Tevye lived in which created him.
 
I watched the movie again just a few months ago with my two teenage dau= ghters (18 and 16) and the main thing that they couldn't understand was why=20= Tevye could not accept his daughter marrying a Russian gentile.  I expl= ained that in this environment, the Russians were actively hostile; it would= be like one of them marrying an Arab who, even if he himself didn't belong=20= to a terrorist group, was known to be friends with active terrorists! =20= It wasn't merely blind prejudice (although of course that entered into it).&= nbsp;
 
I know that Sholom Aleichem is supposed to be a humorist -- the "Yiddis= h Mark Twain".  But, to be honest, I don't find most of his stories to=20= be humorous at all, although Tevye, the Dairyman can be considered to be, if= you understand Jewish humor.  Yentl, for example, is positively grim t= hough I admit it is beautifully written and very emotionally stirring. = Just for the record, I HATED what Barbra Streisand did to give the mov= ie version a happy Hollywood ending!
 
I'm sorry that this has taken me so long to post this.  I've been=20= writing it on and off for over a week.  I've been very busy writing art= icles in support of the residents of Gush Katif and running my website, the=20= Jewish Watch Dog.  Also, I can't stay on the computer for long periods=20= of time because I have multiple sclerosis so my posts will probably be very=20= sporadic.  I do look forward to reading everyone's posts though.
 
Kol tuv,
Dafna
-------------------------------1083701481-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 4 21:32:39 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 16:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Re: Valuing spiritual experiences Message-ID: <21607377.1083702759438.JavaMail.root@wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net>
Dear Kyra,
The "sentimentality" you touched on is something I value that is part of our experience in these stories, and which I see as generally lacking, and certainly not spontaneous, within at least most non-Orthodox communities.  This may be an unfair generalization as my experience is rather limited, but is related to the next point...
 
I really like Tevye's relationship to G-d.  He's quite comfortable within the paradox of personal relationship to a both personal and transcendent G-d.  Not a lot of on-going, heartfelt spirituality going on in non-Orthodox Jewish circles, until in more recent years Reform and Renewal communities have in general revitalized personal and communal spiritual practices.
 
There seems to have been a swing away from valuing spiritual experience in the Enlightenment days, relagating it to near-folklore, and now towards valuing it more highly as assimilation and acceptance proves not wholly satisfying.  It will be interesting to see how this theme is approached by our other writers.
 
Elie Aharon
 

-----Original Message-----
From: matustik07
Sent: May 4, 2004 2:14 PM
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] RE: Dear Ruth Wise

 



PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 5 00:08:48 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Kamali Freedman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 00:08:48 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Re: Valuing spiritual experiences References: <21607377.1083702759438.JavaMail.root@wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_095F_01C43235.23D23250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable elie, i would argue, not alot of heart felt spontaneous spirituality going on = in some orthodox circles too. kamali ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Elie Aharon=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Re: Valuing spiritual experiences Dear Kyra, The "sentimentality" you touched on is something I value that is part = of our experience in these stories, and which I see as generally = lacking, and certainly not spontaneous, within at least most = non-Orthodox communities. This may be an unfair generalization as my = experience is rather limited, but is related to the next point... I really like Tevye's relationship to G-d. He's quite comfortable = within the paradox of personal relationship to a both personal and = transcendent G-d. Not a lot of on-going, heartfelt spirituality going = on in non-Orthodox Jewish circles, until in more recent years Reform and = Renewal communities have in general revitalized personal and communal = spiritual practices. There seems to have been a swing away from valuing spiritual = experience in the Enlightenment days, relagating it to near-folklore, = and now towards valuing it more highly as assimilation and acceptance = proves not wholly satisfying. It will be interesting to see how this = theme is approached by our other writers. Elie Aharon -----Original Message-----=20 From: matustik07=20 Sent: May 4, 2004 2:14 PM=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] RE: Dear Ruth Wise=20 PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com________________________________________________ = NGFP-BookClub mailing list NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org = http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub Nahum = Goldmann Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ Jewish Heritage = Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/ Judaica e-greeting cards = http://cards.jhom.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_095F_01C43235.23D23250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
elie,
i would argue, not alot of heart felt = spontaneous=20 spirituality going on in some orthodox circles too.
kamali
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Elie=20 Aharon
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org= =20
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 = 9:32 PM
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Re: = Valuing=20 spiritual experiences

Dear Kyra,
The "sentimentality" you touched on is something I = value that=20 is part of our experience in these stories, and which I see as = generally=20 lacking, and certainly not spontaneous, within at least most = non-Orthodox=20 communities.  This may be an unfair generalization as my = experience is=20 rather limited, but is related to the next point...
 
I really like Tevye's relationship to G-d.  He's quite = comfortable=20 within the paradox of personal relationship to a both personal and=20 transcendent G-d.  Not a lot of on-going, heartfelt=20 spirituality going on in non-Orthodox Jewish circles, until = in more=20 recent years Reform and Renewal communities have in=20 general revitalized personal and communal spiritual = practices.
 
There seems to have been a swing away from valuing spiritual = experience=20 in the Enlightenment days, relagating it to near-folklore, and now = towards=20 valuing it more highly as assimilation and acceptance proves not = wholly=20 satisfying.  It will be interesting to see how this theme=20 is approached by our other writers.
 
Elie Aharon
 

-----Original Message-----
From: matustik07=20
Sent: May 4, 2004 2:14 PM
To:=20 ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] RE: Dear = Ruth Wise=20

 


PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
____________________________________________= ____=20 NGFP-BookClub mailing list NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org=20 http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub Nahum = Goldmann=20 Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ Jewish Heritage Online = Magazine=20 http://www.jhom.com/ Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/=20 ------=_NextPart_000_095F_01C43235.23D23250-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 5 00:51:56 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 19:51:56 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Re: Valuing spiritual experiences References: <21607377.1083702759438.JavaMail.root@wamui02.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40982C9C.4070701@xs4all.nl> --------------030602080406020005040405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe we should leave the ortho-reform issue out of our discussions. Let's talk about Tevye and Sholem Aleichem. Manja Kamali Freedman wrote: > elie, > i would argue, not alot of heart felt spontaneous spirituality going > on in some orthodox circles too. > kamali > --------------030602080406020005040405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe we should leave the ortho-reform issue out of our discussions.
Let's talk about Tevye and Sholem Aleichem.
Manja

Kamali Freedman wrote:
elie,
i would argue, not alot of heart felt spontaneous spirituality going on in some orthodox circles too.
kamali

--------------030602080406020005040405-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 5 13:54:18 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 08:54:18 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] further thoughts on Tevye Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040505074938.02203008@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_14950093==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I, too, am enjoying this exchange. No one should feel the need to apologize for coming in "late," because I am sure that many people are participating in our discussion without necessarily registering their views with us at all. We should bear in mind, though, that the Tevye familiar from stage and screen is different from the book we have before us. Some of Sholem Aleichem's humor is so intricate that nowadays even people able to read this in the original Yiddish no longer have the traditional background necessary to appreciate all the comedy and wit. >One of Tevye's habits of speech is to quote a phrase from the prayerbook, >or the Bible, or some well known source like Pirke Avot (The Ethics of the >Fathers), then translate it into Yiddish in his own words, often with an >unexpected twist on the original. [Hillel Halkin tells us in his >introduction that in translating this book he decided to leave most of the >quotations in Hebrew and to explain them in a glossary at the back of the >book.] These wordplays display the liveliness of Tevye's mind as well as >his temperament and personality. But we should not assume that the humor >always works in the same way, because his applications differ from one >time to the next. For example--in his praying (page 6), he offers a >running commentary that seems to contradict the plain meaning of the >original, turning the prayer into more of a critical argument than an >unadulterated affirmation of faith. "Refo' eynu veneyrofey, Heal our >wounds and make us whole--please concentrate on the healing because the >wounds we already have." This whole passage is so ironic that some readers >assumed Tevye no longer really believed in God at all. On the other hand, >when Tevye is recovering from the loss of his investment with Menahem >Mendl, he uses one of his favorite quotations, "Be'al korkhekho atoh >khai [regardless of thy will thou livest], nobody asks if you want to be >born or if you want your last pair of boots to be torn." Here, when he >translates the Hebrew into his own words, he reinforces the meaning of the >original. He is heavy hearted at this return to poverty, and quoting one >of the rabbinic teachings lets him express the sadness he feels. Many >people have written--and argued--about the various ways Tevye uses >quotations for comic and serious purposes. The way Tevye plays with quotations raises an interesting question about the relation of tradition to modernity. Tevye comes across as a traditional Jew because of this tendency to quote the sources. On the other hand, he obviously feels free to contradict the sources, so does that make him any less traditional? Sholem Aleichem gives us a character whose tradition is less a constraint than an opportunity for improvisation. He thinks that tradition is an invitation to be himself to the hilt. That's why he must oppose Chava's intermarriage. As Dafna says, when she concerts to marry, she repudiates everything he is and everything he stands for. The point at which Tevye refuses to stop for Chava on the road is also the point at which he parts company with the liberal assumption that Judaism is a thing of the past, or at least no longer as important as marrying for love. --=====================_14950093==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I, too, am enjoying this exchange. No one should feel the need to apologize for coming in "late," because I am sure that many people are participating in our discussion without necessarily registering their views with us at all. We should bear in mind, though, that the Tevye familiar from stage and screen is different from the book we have before us. Some of Sholem Aleichem's humor is so intricate that nowadays even people able to read this in the original Yiddish no longer have the traditional background necessary to appreciate all the comedy and wit.

One of Tevye's habits of speech is to quote a phrase from the prayerbook, or the Bible, or some well known source like Pirke Avot (The Ethics of the Fathers), then translate it into Yiddish in his own words, often with an unexpected twist on the original. [Hillel Halkin tells us in his introduction that in translating this book he decided to leave most of the quotations in Hebrew and to explain them in a glossary at the back of the book.] These wordplays display the liveliness of Tevye's mind as well as his temperament and personality. But we should not assume that the humor always works in the same way, because his applications differ from one time to the next. For example--in his praying (page 6), he offers a running commentary that seems to contradict the plain meaning of the original, turning the prayer into more of a critical argument than an unadulterated affirmation of faith. "Refo' eynu veneyrofey, Heal our wounds and make us whole--please concentrate on the healing because the wounds we already have." This whole passage is so ironic that some readers assumed Tevye no longer really believed in God at all. On the other hand, when Tevye is recovering from the loss of his investment with Menahem Mendl, he uses one of his favorite quotations, "Be'al korkhekho atoh khai  [regardless of thy will thou livest], nobody asks if you want to be born or if you want your last pair of boots to be torn." Here, when he translates the Hebrew into his own words, he reinforces the meaning of the original. He is heavy hearted at this return to poverty, and quoting one of the rabbinic teachings lets him express the sadness he feels. Many people have written--and argued--about the various ways Tevye uses quotations for comic and serious purposes. 

The way Tevye plays with quotations raises an interesting question about the relation of tradition to modernity. Tevye comes across as a traditional Jew because of this tendency to quote the sources. On the other hand, he obviously feels free to contradict the sources, so does that make him any less traditional? Sholem Aleichem gives us a character whose tradition is less a constraint than an opportunity for improvisation. He thinks that tradition is an invitation to be himself to the hilt. That's why he must oppose Chava's intermarriage. As Dafna says, when she concerts to marry, she repudiates everything he is and everything he stands for. The point at which Tevye refuses to stop for Chava on the road is also the point at which he parts company with the liberal assumption that Judaism is a thing of the past, or at least no longer as important as marrying for love.   --=====================_14950093==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 5 17:31:13 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org) Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 12:31:13 EDT Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] further thoughts on Tevye Message-ID: -------------------------------1083774673 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/5/2004 9:27:18 AM Central Standard Time, wisse@fas.harvard.edu writes: This whole passage is so ironic that some readers assumed Tevye no longer really believed in God at all. Not once did I ever question that Judaism and a belief in God is central to Tevye's life. His certain knowledge (and it is more than a belief) that God is aware of him as an individual is probably Tevye's defining characteristic. Also, I wasn't so much saying that I couldn't see the ironic humor in a lot of Tevye's "quotations" (they are really interpretations); I was making more of a general statement about Sholom's writings in general, much of which are not humorous at all. I gave Yentl as an example but that story is not the only one where the bitterness at life's injustices comes through without even an attempt to see a humorous side. (Anyway, I don't see one.) Another point that I don't think anyone mentioned, is that Tevye himself does not see the humor in his statements or his situation. Tevye is not witty or clever, he basically "calls life as he sees it" and he sees it from a very narrow, provincial perspective. I also doubt that Tevye contemporaries considered him a "funny fellow"; it is much more amusing from the outside looking in. In addition, the humor of Tevye the Dairyman is a very specific type that is representative of uneducated people. This is very different from the humor of someone like Jack Paar, for example. And I am not talking about the humor from poverty which is something else altogether. Just throwing out some thoughts to ponder. I'd be interested in how the other students feel about some of the points I've raised. Dafna -------------------------------1083774673 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/5/2004 9:27:18 AM Central Standard Time, wisse@fas= .harvard.edu writes:
This whole passage is so ironic that some read= ers assumed Tevye no longer really believed in God at all.
Not once did I ever question that Judaism and a belief in God is centra= l to Tevye's life.  His certain knowledge (and it is more than a b= elief) that God is aware of him as an individual is probably Tevye's definin= g characteristic. 
 
Also, I wasn't so much saying that I couldn't see the ironic humor in a= lot of Tevye's "quotations" (they are really interpretations); I was making= more of a general statement about Sholom's writings in general, much of whi= ch are not humorous at all.  I gave Yentl as an example but that story=20= is not the only one where the bitterness at life's injustices comes through=20= without even an attempt to see a humorous side.  (Anyway, I don't see o= ne.)
 
Another point that I don't think anyone mentioned, is that Tevye himsel= f does not see the humor in his statements or his situation.  Tevye is=20= not witty or clever, he basically "calls life as he sees it" and he sees it=20= from a very narrow, provincial perspective.  I also doubt that Tevye co= ntemporaries considered him a "funny fellow"; it is much more amusing from t= he outside looking in.
 
In addition, the humor of Tevye the Dairyman is a very specific ty= pe that is representative of uneducated people.  This is very different= from the humor of someone like Jack Paar, for example.  And I am not t= alking about the humor from poverty which is something else altogether. = ;
 
Just throwing out some thoughts to ponder.  I'd be interested in h= ow the other students feel about some of the points I've raised.
 
Dafna
-------------------------------1083774673-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 6 19:29:55 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (matustik07) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 20:29:55 +0200 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] RE: I am just wondering how far some of us go ?! In-Reply-To: <9e.99d1739.2dc952e9@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_30CJ44o9fb2NI8ZCzkK9TQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mrs.Dafna Y. speaks about her few years of life experience. What she did and etc. Are we not discussing Tevye , as a figure ? How does the terorist come on scene ? I am asking is there not a better way,how a mother can explain to her teenage daughters why a Jew should merry a Jew ? I beg my pardon, but a terorist today is diferent as Tevye,s daughter fiance on a diferent time and country.Better to marry a goy as an terorist.is it ? Please do not write about Barbra Streisand or else, do write about Tevye, or Shalom Aleichem, thank you.Kyra Dear Eli Aharon, thank you, yes it is thrue what you write, if I understood properly, there is a need for a new spirituality inside the Jewish community among orthodox and also among liberal. I am not sure which form is working better. I think that in many of us there is a desire for personal God and unity based not on money or career only. We read Sholem and similar writers because we are surching for something, so called lost world, for world from which our grand and grand grand parents came or am I wrong ? -=x=- Skontrolované antivírovým programom NOD32 part000.txt - is OK part001.htm - is OK --Boundary_(ID_30CJ44o9fb2NI8ZCzkK9TQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
 
Mrs.Dafna Y. speaks about her few years of life experience. What she did and etc. Are we not discussing Tevye , as a figure ? How does the terorist come on scene ? I am asking is there not a better way,how a mother can explain to her teenage daughters why a Jew should merry a Jew ? I beg my pardon, but a terorist today is diferent as Tevye,s daughter fiance on a diferent time and country.Better to marry a goy as an terorist.is it ? Please do not write about Barbra Streisand or else, do write about Tevye, or Shalom Aleichem, thank you.Kyra                Dear Eli Aharon, thank you, yes it is thrue what you write, if I understood properly, there is a need for a new spirituality inside the Jewish community among orthodox and also among liberal. I am not sure which form is working better. I think that in many of us there is a desire for personal God and unity based not on money or career only. We read Sholem and similar writers because we are surching for something, so called lost world, for world from which our grand and grand grand parents came or am I wrong ?

-=x=-
Skontrolované antivírovým programom NOD32 part000.txt - is OK
part001.htm - is OK

--Boundary_(ID_30CJ44o9fb2NI8ZCzkK9TQ)-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 6 21:15:18 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Aron Trauring) Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:15:18 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Reminders and request Message-ID: <409A9CD6.8080000@zoteca.com> Dear all Just as a reminder, each segment of the course will cover two weeks. We will be winding up the Tevye part of the course tomorrow, and moving on to the second lesson starting next week: http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson2 We would also like to remind people that the comments go out to several hundred people, most of whom don't know each other. It might be helpful to include a short paragraph about yourself so people know whom they are talking to. We also urge people to only comment on the comments. It is understandable that people might strongly disagree and take exception to what another might say. The appropriate response is to express why you disagree, not comment on the other person. We hope to encourage a free flow of conversation which is inclusive, even if it is a debate. So we ask that people carefully read what they write and ask themselves if they would say the same thing if they were standing in front of an audience of several hundred people (which you all are). We hope people continue the Tevye discussion through tomorrow. We thank all of you who have actively participated thus far, and for keeping the discussion at an interesting and high level. We encourage others to join in. One last reminder. Anyone who wants to unsubscribe should send an email to: admin@ngfp.org The NGFP Online Staff From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 6 22:51:33 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org) Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:51:33 EDT Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] RE: Response to Kyra's comments Message-ID: -------------------------------1083880293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/6/2004 2:02:32 PM Central Standard Time, matustik@ba.telecom.sk writes: Mrs.Dafna Y. speaks about her few years of life experience. What she did and etc. Are we not discussing Tevye , as a figure ? How does the terorist come on scene ? I am asking is there not a better way,how a mother can explain to her teenage daughters why a Jew should merry a Jew ? I beg my pardon, but a terorist today is diferent as Tevye,s daughter fiance on a diferent time and country.Better to marry a goy as an terorist.is it ? Please do not write about Barbra Streisand or else, do write about Tevye, or Shalom Aleichem, thank you.Kyra I brought up that incident of Tevye's reaction to his daughter's desire to marry a Russian gentile because I was trying to show how parts of Sholom's story are still relevant in today's world (many years after he wrote his stories and even many years after the movie was made). Certainly many of the issues that Tevye faced still exist today. Tevye saw all Russian gentiles as people who gladly carried out pogroms which were indeed acts of terrorism even if they weren't called that. Tevye's experiences of being persecuted by non-Jews, and seeing the "outside world" as completely separate from himself, most definitely affected his decisions about his daughters -- all of them. As for my comment on Barbra Streisand, I was writing about how she altered the very message of the story "Yentl" probably to make it more acceptable to today's audiences (although I think it ruined the story)! In addition, I made some comments of how the movie and play versions of Fiddler on the Roof changed some important aspects of Sholem's stories. I maintain that since we are discussing Jewish literature and I was relating Jewish experiences, all of my comments were relevant and appropriate for this group. Maybe your purpose for reading Sholom Aleichem is because you are searching for a lost world but I do not share that aim. I relate everything that I read to my own life and present-day experiences. FYI, I'm writing an article right now on how domestic violence is very analogous to Israel's situation with the "Palestinians" which draws on my degrees in both Jewish history and psychology. Most of my articles, as well as my short stories, have a personal element; that is what makes them unique -- and publishable. I am very interested in learning how reading Sholom's works affected other people's lives and thoughts, even if you are not. Frankly, I don't need any group to only talk about the exact words that Sholom wrote but rather what his writing meant to other people besides myself. But, since I did make lots of comments that could be considered strictly literary, however, I suggest that you concentrate on them if that is all you are interested in. Dafna -------------------------------1083880293 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/6/2004 2:02:32 PM Cent= ral Standard Time, matustik@ba.telecom.sk writes:
Mrs.= Dafna Y. speaks about her few years of life experience. What she did and etc= . Are we not discussing Tevye , as a figure ? How does the terorist come on=20= scene ? I am asking is there not a better way,how a mother can explain to he= r teenage daughters why a Jew should merry a Jew ? I beg my pardon, but a te= rorist today is diferent as Tevye,s daughter fiance on a diferent time and c= ountry.Better to marry a goy as an terorist.is it ? Please do not write= about Barbra Streisand or else, do write about Tevye, or Shalom Aleichem, t= hank you.Kyra          &nb= sp;
I brought up that incident of Tevye's reaction to his daughter's desire= to marry a Russian gentile because I was trying to show how parts of Sholom= 's story are still relevant in today's world (many years after he wrote his=20= stories and even many years after the movie was made).  Certainly many=20= of the issues that Tevye faced still exist today.  Tevye saw all R= ussian gentiles as people who gladly carried out pogroms which were indeed a= cts of terrorism even if they weren't called that.  Tevye's experiences= of being persecuted by non-Jews, and seeing the "outside world" as complete= ly separate from himself, most definitely affected his decisions about=20= his daughters -- all of them. =20
 
As for my comment on Barbra Streisand, I was writing about how she alte= red the very message of the story "Yentl" probably to make it more acceptabl= e to today's audiences (although I think it ruined the story)!  In addi= tion, I made some comments of how the movie and play versions of Fiddler on=20= the Roof changed some important aspects of Sholem's stories. I maintain= that since we are discussing Jewish literature and I was relating Jewish ex= periences, all of my comments were relevant and appropriate for this group.<= /DIV>
 
Maybe your purpose for reading Sholom Aleichem is because you are=20= searching for a lost world but I do not share that aim.  I relate=20= everything that I read to my own life and present-day experiences.  FYI= , I'm writing an article right now on how domestic violence is very analogou= s to Israel's situation with the "Palestinians" which draws on my degrees in= both Jewish history and psychology. Most of my articles, as well as my shor= t stories, have a personal element; that is what makes them unique -- and pu= blishable. 
 
I am very interested in learning how reading Sholom's works affected ot= her people's lives and thoughts, even if you are not.  Frankly, I don't= need any group to only talk about the exact words that Sholo= m wrote but rather what his writing meant to other people besides myself.&nb= sp; But, since I did make lots of comments that could be considered str= ictly literary, however, I suggest that you concentrate on them if that= is all you are interested in.
 
Dafna
-------------------------------1083880293-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 7 05:58:50 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 00:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] further thoughts on Tevye Message-ID: <8174341.1083905930420.JavaMail.root@wamui03.slb.atl.earthlink.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: ruth wisse
Sent: May 5, 2004 8:54 AM
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] further thoughts on Tevye


<snip>For example--in his praying (page 6), he offers a running commentary that seems to contradict the plain meaning of the original, turning the prayer into more of a critical argument than an unadulterated affirmation of faith. "Refo' eynu veneyrofey, Heal our wounds and make us whole--please concentrate on the healing because the wounds we already have." This whole passage is so ironic that some readers assumed Tevye no longer really believed in God at all.

=========================

[Elie says] Tonite I was watching The West Wing (great writing)...the episode called "Two Cathedrals", in which President Bartlett invokes Tevye's strategy after the funeral of Bartlett's beloved secretary who died unjustly.

Bartlett, a reverent Catholic, has a conversation with G-d after the funeral in the National Cathedral.  Standing alone in the cathedral, he expresses his rage at G-d for allowing/causing the woman's sudden and wholly unjust death.  He quotes a litany of praises from the traditional Catholic mass, in Latin, and interspirses his own commentary.... damning the injustice of events and calling G-d to task, but also as a means of expressing his own sorrow, grief and confusion.

Due in part to his experience at the cathedral, he's able to find the strength to reexamine his priorities and make a critical and life-altering decision... one which is exactly opposite to the mood his prayer-dialog expressed earlier.

By this vehicle, Bartlett is calmed, empowered, and personally renewed.  And by this dialog with G-d (though G-d remains silent, at least verbally), he holds open the relationship with G-d, despite his experience of injustice, sorrow, and indignant rage.

For me, it was an 'aha' moment.  Tevye, too, even when confronted by injustice and his own rage and sorrow, finds in the tradition itself the mechanism of attaining acceptance, and even the courage to rise above his limitations and attain a measure of strength.

As Tevye says, "One can't stop being a Jew in this world..." (p.5), and it is for him salvific, but sometimes only when he invokes the paradox of praying while cursing G-d.  For Tevye, the miracle is that G-d is big enough to hear even that.  Perhaps for us all.

Elie Aharon

 

 

 


PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
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From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 7 14:04:05 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:04:05 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] On to Kafka Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040507082927.00bca978@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_16837921==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It is time to move on from the first to the second book in our series--the novel The Trial by Franz Kafka. In my experience, students have found the transition from Tevye the Dairyman to The Trial something of a shock, although--as I point out in the recommended passages from my book--the conclusion of Tevye was written at the same time as The Trial. In fact, it is worth considering how much the end of Tevye has in common with the beginning of The Trial. In both cases, the legitimacy of the main character, the protagonist, is challenged by the powers-that-be. In Tevye's case, the village police come to enforce the tsar's decree that Jews have to move from their villages. Tevye is obviously appalled by this edict. He loses everything to which he thinks himself entitled, yet he knows he has no recourse to higher authorities because the highest authority, the tsar himself, is precisely the one who promulgated this decree against him. Nevertheless, he protests against its injustice. He salvages his pride by the way he answers his accusers. He is forced to suffer the political and economic consequences of this unprovoked attack on his way of life, but not for a second does this confrontation with the authorities undermine his moral self-confidence. When he gives Sholem Aleichem his parting message for his fellow Jews, he seems more convinced than ever that the God of Israel lives. His Jewishness is so substantial that this attack doesn't undermine his spirit. The opening of The Trial conveys a very similar experience, but to a man with no apparent "identity" other than that of citizen in a country with liberal laws. The book is written in a way that not only describes K's insecurity, but forces readers into a situation that is no less disturbing and unclear. Everything that is unclear to K. is equally unclear to the reader. For example, why does the character have only an initial rather than a name? Is it because he is trying to remain anonymous? Is that so that we shouldn't be able to determine his identity, including whether or not he is a Jew? Since he shares the author's initial, are we meant to think of K. as a stand-in for Kafka? But where would that get us? Or is he called K. because the Court is treating him as a case rather than as a complete person? Has he been turned into a cipher by the authorities? None of these questions is ever answered. We have to go through the book without the certainty that readers have been accustomed to feeling about the person to whom they are being introduced. That's what is meant by Kafka's "world." If you have the chance, you might want to read this book with someone else, slowly, seeing the way it weaves its spell. Let's start with the question of what happens to K. and whether he or we can figure out why it happens. This is not a puzzle any single reader has ever "solved," but millions of readers like us have been involved in trying. --=====================_16837921==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is time to move on from the first to the second book in our series--the novel The Trial by Franz Kafka. In my experience, students have found the transition from Tevye the Dairyman to The Trial something of a shock, although--as I point out in the recommended passages from my book--the conclusion of Tevye was written at the same time as The Trial.

In fact, it is worth considering how much the end of Tevye has in common with the beginning of The Trial. In both cases, the legitimacy of the main character, the protagonist, is challenged by the powers-that-be. In Tevye's case, the village police come to enforce the tsar's decree that Jews have to move from their villages. Tevye is obviously appalled by this edict. He loses everything to which he thinks himself entitled, yet he knows he has no recourse to higher authorities because the highest authority, the tsar himself, is precisely the one who promulgated this decree against him. Nevertheless, he protests against its injustice. He salvages his pride by the way he answers his accusers. He is forced to suffer the political and economic consequences of this unprovoked attack on his way of life, but not for a second does this confrontation with the authorities undermine his moral self-confidence. When he gives Sholem Aleichem his parting message for his fellow Jews, he seems more convinced than ever that the God of Israel lives. His Jewishness is so substantial that this attack doesn't undermine his spirit.

The opening of The Trial conveys a very similar experience, but to a man with no apparent "identity" other than that of citizen in a country with liberal laws. The book is written in a way that not only describes K's insecurity, but forces readers into a situation that is no less disturbing and unclear. Everything that is unclear to K. is equally unclear to the reader. For example, why does the character have only an initial rather than a name? Is it because he is trying to remain anonymous? Is that so that we shouldn't be able to determine his identity, including whether or not he is a Jew? Since he shares the author's initial, are we meant to think of K. as a stand-in for Kafka? But where would that get us? Or is he called K. because the Court is treating him as a case rather than as a complete person? Has he been turned into a cipher by the authorities? None of these questions is ever answered. We have to go through the book without the certainty that readers have been accustomed to feeling about the person to whom they are being introduced.

That's what is meant by Kafka's "world." If you have the chance, you might want to read this book with someone else, slowly, seeing the way it weaves its spell. Let's start with the question of what happens to K. and whether he or we can figure out why it happens. This is not a puzzle any single reader has ever "solved," but millions of readers like us have been involved in trying.   --=====================_16837921==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 7 15:10:23 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 07:10:23 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] On to Kafka References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040507082927.00bca978@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c4343d$099fe620$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C43402.5D2DFB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About Kafka's The Trial. Being a part of this book club, has allowed me = to read this book, with new eyes for the first time. As a lawyer, I find = it a compelling story about the legal system. I also find it a = fascinating story about the human mind.=20 Kafka's writes about the most extraordinary things in ordinary language. = It is difficult to separate what may be perceived as dreams into = reality, or it may be reality itself. One of the themes that echo so = loudly in his book is one of oppression and persecution (which as Jews = we understand). It is about punishment, whether from the point of view = of a victim of the legal system, or a type of moral education. As for the character, K. Is he anonymous, or is he, in Kafka's world, a = kind of everyday man, in some ways, like Tevye? To me, he may be called = K because he does not really know who he is...he could be like a blank = slate trying to come to terms with his inner reality. Another = interpretation, I suppose, is that everyone around him represents who he = is and will become, hence the solitary K. Does he live in a world of hopelessness or is he the one who has = actually found hope in the world?=20 Strange how I never really understood this masterpiece nor this = brilliant man, Kafka until middle-age and by then, he has taken on a = whole new meaning.=20 A good way to begin Shabbath. Shabbath Shalom! Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ruth wisse=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 6:04 AM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] On to Kafka It is time to move on from the first to the second book in our = series--the novel The Trial by Franz Kafka. In my experience, students = have found the transition from Tevye the Dairyman to The Trial something = of a shock, although--as I point out in the recommended passages from my = book--the conclusion of Tevye was written at the same time as The Trial. = In fact, it is worth considering how much the end of Tevye has in = common with the beginning of The Trial. In both cases, the legitimacy of = the main character, the protagonist, is challenged by the = powers-that-be. In Tevye's case, the village police come to enforce the = tsar's decree that Jews have to move from their villages. Tevye is = obviously appalled by this edict. He loses everything to which he thinks = himself entitled, yet he knows he has no recourse to higher authorities = because the highest authority, the tsar himself, is precisely the one = who promulgated this decree against him. Nevertheless, he protests = against its injustice. He salvages his pride by the way he answers his = accusers. He is forced to suffer the political and economic consequences = of this unprovoked attack on his way of life, but not for a second does = this confrontation with the authorities undermine his moral = self-confidence. When he gives Sholem Aleichem his parting message for = his fellow Jews, he seems more convinced than ever that the God of = Israel lives. His Jewishness is so substantial that this attack doesn't = undermine his spirit.=20 The opening of The Trial conveys a very similar experience, but to a = man with no apparent "identity" other than that of citizen in a country = with liberal laws. The book is written in a way that not only describes = K's insecurity, but forces readers into a situation that is no less = disturbing and unclear. Everything that is unclear to K. is equally = unclear to the reader. For example, why does the character have only an = initial rather than a name? Is it because he is trying to remain = anonymous? Is that so that we shouldn't be able to determine his = identity, including whether or not he is a Jew? Since he shares the = author's initial, are we meant to think of K. as a stand-in for Kafka? = But where would that get us? Or is he called K. because the Court is = treating him as a case rather than as a complete person? Has he been = turned into a cipher by the authorities? None of these questions is ever = answered. We have to go through the book without the certainty that = readers have been accustomed to feeling about the person to whom they = are being introduced.=20 That's what is meant by Kafka's "world." If you have the chance, you = might want to read this book with someone else, slowly, seeing the way = it weaves its spell. Let's start with the question of what happens to K. = and whether he or we can figure out why it happens. This is not a puzzle = any single reader has ever "solved," but millions of readers like us = have been involved in trying. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C43402.5D2DFB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
About Kafka's The Trial. Being = a part of=20 this book club, has allowed me to read this book, with new eyes for the = first=20 time. As a lawyer, I find it a compelling story about the legal system. = I also=20 find it a fascinating story about the human mind.
 
Kafka's writes about the most = extraordinary things=20 in ordinary language. It is difficult to separate what may be perceived = as=20 dreams into reality, or it may be reality itself. One of the themes that = echo so=20 loudly in his book is one of oppression and persecution (which as Jews = we=20 understand). It is about punishment, whether from the point of view of a = victim=20 of the legal system, or a type of moral education.
 
As for the character, K. Is he = anonymous, or is he,=20 in Kafka's world, a kind of everyday man, in some ways, like Tevye? To = me, he=20 may be called K because he does not really know who he is...he could be = like a=20 blank slate trying to come to terms with his inner reality. Another=20 interpretation, I suppose, is that everyone around him represents who he = is and=20 will become, hence the solitary K.
Does he live in a world of hopelessness = or is he=20 the one who has actually found hope in the world?

Strange how I never really understood this masterpiece nor this = brilliant man, Kafka until middle-age and by then, he has taken on = a  whole=20 new meaning.

A good way to begin Shabbath. Shabbath Shalom!
 
Barbara S. Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ruth=20 wisse
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 6:04 = AM
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] On to=20 Kafka

It is time to move on from the first to the second book = in our=20 series--the novel The Trial by Franz Kafka. In my experience, = students=20 have found the transition from Tevye the Dairyman to The = Trial=20 something of a shock, although--as I point out in the recommended = passages=20 from my book--the conclusion of Tevye was written at the same time as = The=20 Trial.

In fact, it is worth considering how much the end = of=20 Tevye has in common with the beginning of The Trial. In = both=20 cases, the legitimacy of the main character, the protagonist, is = challenged by=20 the powers-that-be. In Tevye's case, the village police come to = enforce the=20 tsar's decree that Jews have to move from their villages. Tevye is = obviously=20 appalled by this edict. He loses everything to which he thinks himself = entitled, yet he knows he has no recourse to higher authorities = because the=20 highest authority, the tsar himself, is precisely the one who = promulgated this=20 decree against him. Nevertheless, he protests against its injustice. = He=20 salvages his pride by the way he answers his accusers. He is forced to = suffer=20 the political and economic consequences of this unprovoked attack on = his way=20 of life, but not for a second does this confrontation with the = authorities=20 undermine his moral self-confidence. When he gives Sholem Aleichem his = parting=20 message for his fellow Jews, he seems more convinced than ever that = the God of=20 Israel lives. His Jewishness is so substantial that this attack = doesn't=20 undermine his spirit.

The opening of The Trial conveys = a very=20 similar experience, but to a man with no apparent "identity" other = than that=20 of citizen in a country with liberal laws. The book is written in a = way that=20 not only describes K's insecurity, but forces readers into a situation = that is=20 no less disturbing and unclear. Everything that is unclear to K. is = equally=20 unclear to the reader. For example, why does the character have only = an=20 initial rather than a name? Is it because he is trying to remain = anonymous? Is=20 that so that we shouldn't be able to determine his identity, including = whether=20 or not he is a Jew? Since he shares the author's initial, are we meant = to=20 think of K. as a stand-in for Kafka? But where would that get us? Or = is he=20 called K. because the Court is treating him as a case rather than as a = complete person? Has he been turned into a cipher by the authorities? = None of=20 these questions is ever answered. We have to go through the book = without the=20 certainty that readers have been accustomed to feeling about the = person to=20 whom they are being introduced.

That's what is meant by = Kafka's=20 "world." If you have the chance, you might want to read this book with = someone=20 else, slowly, seeing the way it weaves its spell. Let's start with the = question of what happens to K. and whether he or we can figure out why = it=20 happens. This is not a puzzle any single reader has ever "solved," but = millions of readers like us have been involved in trying.  =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C43402.5D2DFB50-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 7 16:45:00 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 08:45:00 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Tevye comments In-Reply-To: <408D774C.8090505@aronst.org> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3166764300_98650_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I just finished reading Tevye, though not yet the Halkin introduction and Canon material, and feel impelled to comment. I had never read it before, though I did see the stage production with Luther Adler, the film musical, also the old Yiddish film and a Yiddish stage production in Montreal. I still remember watching the musical on TV with my kids - my youngest son, about 5 or 6 at the time, was struck by the scene where the wedding was disrupted by anti-semitic Russians, and commented "I never want to get married" (but he did). This reading thus offered some familiar as well as new narrative. I found it the most moving exposure yet - I laughed at times, though not a lot, and I also cried at times. Overall, more tragic than comic. The tragicomic mixture also reminded me of some Irish theatre e.g. Juno and the Paycock et al. I identified strongly with Tevye, both in his personal tragedies and in the concurrent Jewish tragedies, which mirror the troubles of my grandparents in their upbringing in Lithuania and their later immigration with their children to England and then Canada. My father has told me of his father, who told him how difficult life was, with poverty, anti-semitism, the deaths of children etc. and how he sometimes thought of suicide, yet like Tevye he persevered, cared for his family and, unlike Tevye, ultimately prospered. My father also told me of his father's sense of humour, which my father inherited, and which Tevye reminded me of. My parents spoke Yiddish, though not too well I think, and I have always regretted that they never taught it to me - I only heard it when they didn't want us kids to understand what they were saying, though we sometimes got the gist anyway. (Later, we learned French in school, and once at the dinner table my brother and I exchanged a few words in French - my mother said angrily "speak English so we can understand!". We said nothing, but exchanged a slight smile and a knowing look - perhaps at that moment we were more like Tevye's daughters.) I also identified with Tevye as a parent, though I have only four sons and no daughters, except in fantasy. I sometimes feel sad to see them with much less Jewish consciousness than I have and following different paths in life than I might perhaps have wanted for them, though they are all good guys and doing well - my father too was less Jewish than his father, and I guess that is inevitable, as I see my American grandkids with even less Jewish identity than my sons (sigh). More prosperity, but less Jewishness - so Tevye, is this what they call progress? I was especially moved by the Beilke story and of how Tevye's fantasy of having a rich daughter was finally fulfilled, but not happily, and of how children can live out their parents' fantasies, conscious or unconscious, rather than following their own needs. My own fantasy of a rich son has been fulfilled, a mixed blessing indeed, though not as it was with Tevye. It reminded me of Socrates, or one of the characters in a Plato dialogue, saying to be careful what you wish for, because you're liable to get it. Oscar Wilde, too, said "there are two great tragedies in life: not getting your heart's desire, and getting your heart's desire." I have seen this in my own life as well, and in my children's. You were a wise man, Sholem Aleichem. Thank you so much, Ruth, for offerring this course, and for stimulating me to do this reading. It is my first opportunity in a long time to learn from you - I still remember vividly your wonderful presentations at the Peretz conference in 1991, which stimulated me at that time to read Peretz. A sheinem dank. Philip Shulman, M.D. Los Angeles philipdoc@earthlink.net --MS_Mac_OE_3166764300_98650_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Tevye comments    I just finished reading Tevye, though not yet the Halkin= introduction and Canon material,  and feel impelled to comment.  = I had never read it before,  though I did see the stage production with= Luther Adler, the film musical, also the old Yiddish film and a Yiddish sta= ge production in Montreal.  I still remember watching the musical on TV= with my kids -  my youngest son, about 5 or 6 at the time, was struck = by the scene where the wedding was disrupted by anti-semitic Russians, and c= ommented "I never want to get married" (but he did). This reading = thus offered some familiar as well as new narrative. I found it the most mov= ing exposure yet - I laughed at times,  though not a lot, and I also cr= ied at times. Overall, more tragic than comic.  The tragicomic mixture = also reminded me of some Irish theatre e.g. Juno and the Paycock et al. &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =        
    I identified strongly with Tevye, both in his pers= onal tragedies and in the concurrent Jewish tragedies, which mirror the trou= bles of my grandparents in their upbringing in Lithuania and their later imm= igration with their children to England and then Canada. My father has told = me of his father, who told him how difficult life was, with poverty, anti-se= mitism, the deaths of children etc. and how he sometimes thought of suicide,= yet like Tevye he persevered, cared for his family and, unlike Tevye, ultim= ately prospered.  My father also told me of his father's sense of humou= r, which my father inherited, and which Tevye reminded me of.  My paren= ts spoke Yiddish, though not too well I think, and I have always regretted t= hat they never taught it to me - I only heard it when they didn't want us ki= ds to understand what they were saying,  though we sometimes got the gi= st anyway.  (Later, we learned French in school, and once at the dinner= table my brother and I exchanged a few words in French - my mother said ang= rily  "speak English so we can understand!".  We said no= thing,  but exchanged a slight smile and a knowing look - perhaps at th= at moment we were more like Tevye's daughters.)
   I also identified with Tevye as a parent,  though I= have only four sons and no daughters, except in fantasy. I sometimes feel s= ad to see them with much less Jewish consciousness than   I have a= nd following different paths in life than I might perhaps have wanted for th= em, though they are all good guys and doing well - my father too was less Je= wish than his father, and I guess that is inevitable, as I see my  Amer= ican grandkids with even less Jewish identity than my sons (sigh).  Mor= e prosperity, but less Jewishness -  so Tevye, is this what they call p= rogress?
I was especially moved by the Beilke story and of how Tevye's fantasy of ha= ving a rich daughter was finally fulfilled, but not happily, and of how chil= dren can live out their parents' fantasies, conscious or unconscious, rather= than following their own needs.  My own fantasy of a rich son has been= fulfilled,  a mixed blessing indeed,  though not as it was with T= evye.  It reminded me of  Socrates, or one of the characters in a = Plato dialogue, saying to be careful what you wish for, because you're liabl= e to get it. Oscar Wilde, too, said  "there are two great tragedie= s in life: not getting your heart's desire, and getting your heart's desire.= " I have seen this in my own life as well, and in my children's.  = You were a wise man, Sholem Aleichem.
   Thank you so much, Ruth, for offerring this course, and = for stimulating me to do this reading.  It is my first opportunity in a= long time to learn from you -  I still remember vividly your wonderful= presentations at the Peretz conference in 1991, which stimulated me at that= time to read Peretz.  A sheinem dank.

Philip Shulman, M.D.
Los Angeles
philipdoc@earthlink.net
--MS_Mac_OE_3166764300_98650_MIME_Part-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 7 23:34:37 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 15:34:37 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] THE TRIAL on stage and TEVYE on film Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3166788878_1577235_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable For members who live in Southern California, I would like to draw their attention to a fine and very kafkaesque stage adaptation of The Trial in Hollywood, which re-opens June 10. I saw it a few weeks ago and enjoyed it greatly. See below for a review from the L.A. Weekly. And for those who want to see the great yiddish actor Maurice Schwartz in the 1939 film of Tevye, for a mere $72, click on the link below. I would like to see it again, but I think I will wait for Kino to release it on DV= D at a cheaper price, if they ever do. Here's the link: http://www.brandeis.edu/jewishfilm/tevye.html THE TRIAL Director Aclan Bates-Buyukturkoglu takes on Andr=E9 Gide=B9s rarely performed stage adaptation of Franz Kafka=B9s novel about totalitarianism run amok. Those who have read the book might be puzzled why Buyukturkoglu chose to give it such a densely expressionist rendering, but the fine cast and production staff keep it entertaining and accessible. Bank manager Josef K (Christopher Goodman) wakes up one morning accused by the authorities of an unspecified crime he has no knowledge of. In short order, K finds himself entangled in a nightmare, a macabre circus of eerie, masked figures, labyrinthine detours, inexplicable events and bureaucratic madness, as the wheels of =B3justice=B2 and the =B3law=B2 ultimately crush him in their inexorable progression. The large ensemble does excellent work throughout this visuall= y appealing production. Robert Howeth has constructed a striking, two-tiered set piece with Gothic tinctures. Wendy Gough=B9s haunting masks contribute to the atmosphere of parlous mystery, as does Kemal G=FCn=FC=E7=B9s original score, which features a chilling piano and clarinet duo. Write Act Theater, 6128 Yucca St., Hlywd.; Thurs.-Sat., 8 p.m. re-opens June 10. (323) 860-8894). Written 03/25/2004 (Lovell Estell III) for more information: http://www.writeactrep.org/show_info.htm --MS_Mac_OE_3166788878_1577235_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable THE TRIAL on stage and TEVYE  on film For members who live in Southern California, I would like to draw their att= ention to a fine and very kafkaesque stage adaptation of The Trial in Hollyw= ood, which re-opens June 10.  I saw it a few weeks ago and enjoyed it g= reatly. See below for a review from the L.A. Weekly.
And for those who want to see the great yiddish actor Maurice Schwartz in t= he 1939 film of Tevye, for a mere $72, click on the  link below.  = I would like to see it again, but I think I  will wait for Kino to rele= ase it on DVD at a cheaper price, if they ever do.  Here's the link: http://www.brandeis.edu/jewishfilm/tevye.html

THE TRIAL


Director Aclan Bates-Buyukturkoglu takes on Andr=E9 Gide=B9s rarely performed s= tage adaptation of Franz Kafka=B9s novel about totalitarianism run amok. Those= who have read the book might be puzzled why Buyukturkoglu chose to give it = such a densely expressionist rendering, but the fine cast and production sta= ff keep it entertaining and accessible. Bank manager Josef K (Christopher Go= odman) wakes up one morning accused by the authorities of an unspecified cri= me he has no knowledge of. In short order, K finds himself entangled in a ni= ghtmare, a macabre circus of eerie, masked figures, labyrinthine detours, in= explicable events and bureaucratic madness, as the wheels of =B3justice=B2 and t= he =B3law=B2 ultimately crush him in their inexorable progression. The large ens= emble does excellent work throughout this visually appealing production. Rob= ert Howeth has constructed a striking, two-tiered set piece with Gothic tinc= tures. Wendy Gough=B9s haunting masks contribute to the atmosphere of parlous = mystery, as does Kemal G=FCn=FC=E7=B9s original score, which features a chilling pia= no and clarinet duo. Write Act Theater, 6128 Yucca St., Hlywd.; Thurs.-Sat.,= 8 p.m. re-opens June 10. (323) 860-8894). Written 03/25/2004 (Lovell= Estell III)
for more information:
http://www.writeactrep.org/show_info.htm=20 --MS_Mac_OE_3166788878_1577235_MIME_Part-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 08:53:00 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barry) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:53:00 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Joseph K and me Message-ID: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2AC@SERVER1> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43663.D100CF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It did not occur to me, before I began this course, that there could be = any connection between Tevye and Joseph K. They seem to inhabit different times, different universes. True, both their lives are buffeted by = "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune", but while Tevye's tzores are intensely personal; K's appear to be impersonal. =20 =20 We may agree or disagree with his behaviour, but we can understand why = Tevye behaves as he does; he is as familiar to us as last week's barmitzvah. = K's thought processes and actions are, to me, as alien and unpredictable as = the world he faces. Even the way his story is presented on the page is = strange - hardly any paragraph breaks, just text, text and more text. Very = boring - was Kafka deliberately trying to put me off reading this book? =20 =20 However, the introduction to my edition of The Trial (Penguin Classics, London 2000), written by Idris Parry, reveals that The Trial was = written just after the break-up of Kafka's engagement, when he was subjected to = just such a Trial, a sort of Star Chamber investigation by his fianc=E9e = Felice, her sister and her friend Grete about his suitability for the = forthcoming marriage. Grete revealed Kafka's private thoughts about the engagement = that he had communicated to her in a series of indiscreet letters. (Mind = you , he wrote some weird stuff to his Felice too; I am surprised she had not = run a mile from him much earlier than this.) =20 =20 Kafka sat there apparently uninvolved - the silent accused (exercising = his right of silence?). He was then informed that the decision was that = his engagement would be terminated. Interestingly, Kafka described the experience as a "gerichtsof" (a court of justice) in his diary and = later said that Grete (not Felice!) was "sitting in judgement" on him. This account of his engagement being broken by the gerichtsof allows for = quite a different reading of the book for me. =20 =20 Kafka seems to me to be a person who "kept himself to himself". It = might have been difficult to reconcile that thought with the fact that Kafka = is a writer and so, by self-definition, a person who has something to say = that he wishes to address to the world outside himself. But we remember that = he published little. He instructed Max Brod to destroy all his work after = his death. It makes me wonder, was this strange oeuvre, which if were = written today might well be categorised as science/fantasy, written only for himself? We know that as he began to write The Trial, Kafka wrote in = his diary that he was going to "carry on a conversation with myself". =20 =20 This fact that he was addressing himself more than us, makes it = difficult for us to approach Kafka in the same way as we would approach an author = who writes to be read by others. =20 =20 Is the book about the impersonality of human relationships? There is = more than a hint of the personal in his choice of the letter K for his protagonist; and I wonder at his choice of the name Franz for the = person who arrests him in the first chapter. Does this writer not know whose side = he is on, or is he deliberately ambiguous? Kafka is nothing if not = enigmatic. =20 =20 I would be delighted to meet Tevye (and perhaps I have met many Tevyes = over the years) and, though he would drive me nuts fairly quickly, I would = retain affection for him. I feel nothing but irritation for Joseph K so far = (this is where I admit that I haven't finished the book yet. Mind you, = there's nothing wrong with that -neither did Kafka.) =20 I hope I may make an observation on the experience of looking for the = books for this course. They are all well known books (except for the Sabato, which I am very much looking forward to reading). Tevye may be = especially well known from film and stage, but it didn't help make the book widely available. I couldn't find him on any shelf in London's Jewish = bookstores - nor as far afield as Manchester. There was supposedly one copy on the = shelf in the Golders Green library, but when I went there to borrow it, the = book was missing. Someone has stolen it since December, when it was last recorded as having been borrowed, - I hope it was not anyone who is = reading this posting. =20 =20 Most of the other books were similarly difficult to find (but at least = I have the time to order them). Many friends thought that they had a = copy of The Trial somewhere at home, so did I - and we were all wrong. (I even tried Guttenberg.com and found that it does not go out of copyright = till next year: but I was luckier at the library this time). =20 =20 What, I wonder does this tell us about the state of Jewish literature = in our homes and our lives today? Even those of us who read our Amichais, Grossmans and Yehoshuas seem to have only a limited interest in our = rich literary heritage.=20 I have not participated in an online book discussion before. I am = struck at how different the comments are from a face to face discussion. They = seem to me to more personal, less dialogue and more monologue as we relate the = work to our own experiences, and this is particularly fascinating as almost = each successive posting seems to come from a different continent. Aron suggested that we say something about ourselves in our postings to contextualise our comments. I wonder if this will help with = interpretation, or will it introduce preconceptions that will be an obstacle to interpretation?=20 Barry Abrahamson London A lawyer, born (just) in the first half of the last century in = Liverpool, married with three teenage daughters. As with most British Jews of my generation, both my parents were born in England, and all my = grandparents were born in eastern Europe. I attended a Goldmann Fellowship in = Russia about ten years ago. =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43663.D100CF90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It never occurred to me before I began this course that there = could be any connection between Tevye and Joseph K

It did not occur to me, before I began this course, that there = could be any connection between Tevye and Joseph K.  They seem to inhabit different times, different = universes.  True, both their lives are = buffeted by “the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune", but while = Tevye’s tzores are intensely personal; = K’s appear to be impersonal.  =

 

We may agree or disagree with his behaviour, but we can = understand why Tevye behaves as he does; he is as familiar to us as last week’s = barmitzvah. K’s thought processes and actions are, to me, as alien and = unpredictable as the world he faces.  Even the = way his story is presented on the page is strange – hardly any paragraph = breaks, just text, text and more text.  = Very boring - was Kafka deliberately trying to put me off reading this = book? 

 

However, the introduction to my edition of The Trial (Penguin = Classics, London 2000), written by Idris Parry, reveals that The Trial was = written just after the break-up of Kafka’s engagement, when he was subjected = to just such a Trial, a sort of Star Chamber investigation by his fianc=E9e Felice, = her sister and her friend Grete about his suitability for the forthcoming = marriage.  Grete revealed Kafka’s = private thoughts about the engagement that he had communicated to her in a series of = indiscreet letters.   (Mind you = , he wrote some weird stuff to his Felice too; I am surprised she had not = run a mile from him much earlier than this.) 

 

Kafka sat there apparently uninvolved - the silent accused = (exercising his right of silence?).  = He was then informed that the decision was that his engagement would be = terminated.  Interestingly, Kafka = described the experience as a “gerichtsof” (a court of justice) in his diary and later said that Grete (not Felice!) = was “sitting in judgement” on = him.  This account of his = engagement being broken by the gerichtsof = allows for quite a different reading of the book for me.  

 

Kafka seems to me to be a person who “kept himself to = himself”.  It might have been difficult = to reconcile that thought with the fact that Kafka is a writer and so, by self-definition, a person who has something to say that he wishes to = address to the world outside himself.  = But we remember that he published little.  He instructed Max Brod to destroy all his work after his = death.  It makes me wonder, was this = strange oeuvre, which if were written today might well be categorised as science/fantasy, written only for himself?  We know that as he began to write The Trial, Kafka = wrote in his diary that he was going to “carry on a conversation with myself”. 

 

This fact that he was addressing himself more than us, makes it difficult for us to approach Kafka in the same way as we would approach = an author who writes to be read by others. 

 

Is the book about the impersonality of human = relationships?  There is more than a hint of = the personal in his choice of the letter K for his protagonist; and I = wonder at his choice of the name Franz for the person who arrests him in the first = chapter. Does this writer not know whose side he is on, or is he deliberately = ambiguous?  Kafka is nothing if not = enigmatic. 

 

I would be delighted to meet Tevye  (and perhaps I have met many Tevyes over the years) = and, though he would drive me nuts fairly quickly, I would retain affection = for him.  I feel nothing but irritation = for Joseph K so far  (this is = where I admit that I haven’t finished the book yet.  Mind you, there’s nothing wrong with that = –neither did Kafka.)

 

I hope I may make an observation on the experience of looking = for the books for this course.  = They are all well known books (except for the Sabato, which I am very much = looking forward to reading).  = Tevye may be especially well known from film and stage, but it didn’t help = make the book widely available.  I = couldn’t find him on any shelf in London’s Jewish bookstores – nor as far = afield as Manchester.  There was = supposedly one copy on the shelf in the Golders Green library, but when I went = there to borrow it, the book was missing.  Someone has stolen it since December, when it was last recorded = as having been borrowed, - I hope it was not anyone who is reading this posting.  =

 

Most of the other books were similarly difficult to find (but = at least I have the time to order them).  Many friends thought that they had a copy of The Trial somewhere = at home, so did I - and we were all wrong.  (I even tried Guttenberg.com and found that it does not go out = of copyright till next year: but I was luckier at the library this time). 

 

What, I wonder does this tell us about the state of Jewish = literature in our homes and our lives today?  Even those of us who read our Amichais, Grossmans and Yehoshuas = seem to have only a limited interest in our rich literary heritage. =

I have not = participated in an online book discussion before.  I am struck at how different the comments are from a face to = face discussion.  They seem to = me to more personal, less dialogue and more monologue as we relate the work = to our own experiences, and this is particularly fascinating as almost each = successive posting seems to come from a different continent.    Aron suggested that we say something = about ourselves in our postings to contextualise our comments.  I wonder if this will help = with interpretation, or will it introduce preconceptions that will be an = obstacle to interpretation?

Barry = Abrahamson

London

A lawyer, born (just) in the first half of the last century in Liverpool, married with three teenage daughters. As with most British = Jews of my generation, both my parents were born in England, and all my = grandparents were born in eastern Europe.  = I attended a Goldmann Fellowship in Russia about ten years ago. 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C43663.D100CF90-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 10:07:41 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 05:07:41 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040510044024.00bd23c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_2749078==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson2 Since the book opens with K.'s awakening from sleep, it is possible to read it as a nightmare, especially since the novel functions with dream-like logic. But since it is a dream from which K. never awakens, we have to take this as the book's representation of reality. Unlike Tevye, K. is a modern man, living in a modern city, and in some ways he doesn't seem to be in any trouble at all(page 4 in my edition): "K. lived in a country with a legal constitution, there was universal peace, all the laws were in force; who dared seize him in his own dwelling? He had always been inclined to take things easily, to believe in the worst only when the worst happened, to take no care for the morrow even when the outlook was threatening. But that struck him as not being the right policy here, one could certainly regard the whole thing as a joke, a rude joke which his colleagues in the Bank had concocted for some unknown reason, perhaps because this was his thirtieth birthday, that was of course possible......" K's most serious problem right from the start is his inability to understand his situation clearly, "but with these people beside him he could not even think." K. relies on his reason. He expects his ordered life to continue as it always has--except that one morning he can't reason it out any more. The first bad thing that happens to him is that he finds himself under arrest. But the worse thing that happens to him--worse than being under arrest--is that he cannot figure out the conditions that govern his life. His reason is suddenly insufficient. He discovers that he is not as well-equipped as he thought. He spends the rest of the book trying to puzzle out his situation. K. seems entirely innocent of any crime. But innocent of what? If the charge isn't clear, how can he prove his innocence? Does he remain convinced of his innocence right to the end? --=====================_2749078==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson2

Since the book opens with K.'s awakening from sleep, it is possible to read it as a nightmare, especially since the novel functions with dream-like logic. But since it is a dream from which K. never awakens, we have to take this as the book's representation of reality. Unlike Tevye, K. is a modern man, living in a modern city, and in some ways he doesn't seem to be in any trouble at all(page 4 in my edition):
    
"K. lived in a country with a legal constitution, there was universal peace, all the laws were in force; who dared seize him in his own dwelling? He had always been inclined to take things easily, to believe in the worst only when the worst happened, to take no care for the morrow even when the outlook was threatening. But that struck him as not being the right policy here, one could certainly regard the whole thing as a joke, a rude joke which his colleagues in the Bank had concocted for some unknown reason, perhaps because this was his thirtieth birthday, that was of course possible......"

K's most serious problem right from the start is his inability to understand his situation clearly, "but with these people beside him he could not even think." K. relies on his reason. He expects his ordered life to continue as it always has--except that one morning he can't reason it out any more. The first bad thing that happens to him is that he finds himself under arrest. But the worse thing that happens to him--worse than being under arrest--is that he cannot figure out the conditions that govern his life. His reason is suddenly insufficient. He discovers that he is not as well-equipped as he thought. He spends the rest of the book trying to puzzle out his situation.

K. seems entirely innocent of any crime. But innocent of what? If the charge isn't clear, how can he prove his innocence? Does he remain convinced of his innocence right to the end?


--=====================_2749078==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 15:41:58 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 07:41:58 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040510044024.00bd23c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c4369c$f2b9d6c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C43662.464A35E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since re-reading, The Trial, it has virtually "obsessed" in the same way = that the idea of being on trial had obsessed K. I think there are a few possibilities about interpreting K's problem. = One is looking at the entire incident of the arrest itself of one of = perception, that is to say, a condition entirely of the human mind. This = could be a result of a dream. The first sentence says "K was arrested = without having done ANYTHING TRULY WRONG. Many of the scenes of the book = play out like a dream, from the men coming to arrest K to the many rooms = he finds himself in after the arrest (interesting attics, narrow halls.) = There is also the entire idea that he is not confined, but free to = leave, which could again reinforce the dream vs. reality concept. On the other hand, Kafka could be presenting us with something much more = sinister, having to do with the human mind: that is we are all victims = of our own perceptions...This whole trial could be a type of punishment = for K. He seems to be a perfectionist, calculating in his manners of = interactions with others, slightly acting above it all. For example, he = tells others how to act, yet when told he is free to go, in unable to = leave, at least from the mental point of view. Is the idea of a year = long trial his punishment for being "morally distant?" This is a = possibility. The trial could also represent the hopeless condition of = his internal mind. This analysis is one from the inside out rather than = the outside in. Being the victim of a complicated bureaucracy is another = layer of the onion that one could peel away from this absolutely = fascinating and engaging book. I could read it over and over and over = again and still not get it, it seems. Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ruth wisse=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:07 AM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson2 Since the book opens with K.'s awakening from sleep, it is possible to = read it as a nightmare, especially since the novel functions with = dream-like logic. But since it is a dream from which K. never awakens, = we have to take this as the book's representation of reality. Unlike = Tevye, K. is a modern man, living in a modern city, and in some ways he = doesn't seem to be in any trouble at all(page 4 in my edition):=20 =20 "K. lived in a country with a legal constitution, there was universal = peace, all the laws were in force; who dared seize him in his own = dwelling? He had always been inclined to take things easily, to believe = in the worst only when the worst happened, to take no care for the = morrow even when the outlook was threatening. But that struck him as not = being the right policy here, one could certainly regard the whole thing = as a joke, a rude joke which his colleagues in the Bank had concocted = for some unknown reason, perhaps because this was his thirtieth = birthday, that was of course possible......" K's most serious problem right from the start is his inability to = understand his situation clearly, "but with these people beside him he = could not even think." K. relies on his reason. He expects his ordered = life to continue as it always has--except that one morning he can't = reason it out any more. The first bad thing that happens to him is that = he finds himself under arrest. But the worse thing that happens to = him--worse than being under arrest--is that he cannot figure out the = conditions that govern his life. His reason is suddenly insufficient. He = discovers that he is not as well-equipped as he thought. He spends the = rest of the book trying to puzzle out his situation.=20 K. seems entirely innocent of any crime. But innocent of what? If the = charge isn't clear, how can he prove his innocence? Does he remain = convinced of his innocence right to the end?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C43662.464A35E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since re-reading, The Trial, = it has=20 virtually "obsessed" in the same way that the idea of being on trial had = obsessed K.
 
I think there are a few possibilities = about=20 interpreting K's problem. One is looking at the entire incident of=20 the arrest itself  of one of perception, that is to say, a = condition=20 entirely of the human mind. This could be a result of a dream. The first = sentence says "K was arrested without having done ANYTHING TRULY WRONG. = Many of=20 the scenes of the book play out like a dream, from the men coming to = arrest K to=20 the many rooms he finds himself in after the arrest (interesting attics, = narrow=20 halls.) There is also the entire idea that he is not confined, but free = to=20 leave, which could again reinforce the dream vs. reality = concept.
 
On the other hand, Kafka could be = presenting us=20 with something much more sinister, having to do with the human mind: = that is we=20 are all victims of our own perceptions...This whole trial could be a = type of=20 punishment for K. He seems to be a perfectionist, calculating in his = manners of=20 interactions with others, slightly acting above it all. For example, he = tells=20 others how to act, yet when told he is free to go, in unable to leave, = at least=20 from the mental point of view. Is the idea of a year long trial his = punishment=20 for being "morally distant?" This is a possibility. The trial could also = represent the hopeless condition of his internal mind.  This = analysis is=20 one from the inside out rather than the outside in. Being the victim of = a=20 complicated bureaucracy is another layer of the onion that one could = peel away=20 from this absolutely fascinating and engaging book. I could read it over = and=20 over and over again and still not get it, it seems.
 
Barbara S. Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ruth=20 wisse
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:07 = AM
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The = Trial

http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson2

<= /A>Since=20 the book opens with K.'s awakening from sleep, it is possible to read = it as a=20 nightmare, especially since the novel functions with dream-like logic. = But=20 since it is a dream from which K. never awakens, we have to take this = as the=20 book's representation of reality. Unlike Tevye, K. is a modern man, = living in=20 a modern city, and in some ways he doesn't seem to be in any trouble = at=20 all(page 4 in my edition):
    
"K. lived = in a=20 country with a legal constitution, there was universal peace, all the = laws=20 were in force; who dared seize him in his own dwelling? He had always = been=20 inclined to take things easily, to believe in the worst only when the = worst=20 happened, to take no care for the morrow even when the outlook was=20 threatening. But that struck him as not being the right policy here, = one could=20 certainly regard the whole thing as a joke, a rude joke which his = colleagues=20 in the Bank had concocted for some unknown reason, perhaps because = this was=20 his thirtieth birthday, that was of course possible......"

K's = most=20 serious problem right from the start is his inability to understand = his=20 situation clearly, "but with these people beside him he could not even = think."=20 K. relies on his reason. He expects his ordered life to continue as it = always=20 has--except that one morning he can't reason it out any more. The = first bad=20 thing that happens to him is that he finds himself under arrest. But = the worse=20 thing that happens to him--worse than being under arrest--is that he = cannot=20 figure out the conditions that govern his life. His reason is suddenly = insufficient. He discovers that he is not as well-equipped as he = thought. He=20 spends the rest of the book trying to puzzle out his situation. =

K.=20 seems entirely innocent of any crime. But innocent of what? If the = charge=20 isn't clear, how can he prove his innocence? Does he remain convinced = of his=20 innocence right to the end?


------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C43662.464A35E0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 16:08:46 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:08:46 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] biographical interpretations Message-ID: <409F9AFE.2070603@xs4all.nl> Kafka's 'Der Prozess' is far too important a novel to be reduced to biographical interpretation. As a matter of fact, like all great literature, it transcends any interpretation. And there have been many, over the years. One that strikes me as important for our current discussion, is that it is an image of the position of Jews in Central Europe in the first decades of the twentieth Century. It is very interesting to look at it that way, especially if you know about Kafka's ambivalence towards Judaism. In his diaries, he describes his visits to the Yiddish theatre in Prague, his admiration for 'real' Jews, as he considered the Eastern European Jews, the actors whom he met there. Kafka himself was torn, like most Jews in countries where Jews had received civil rights in the era of Napoleon. He knew that gentile society didn't really accept him as an equal, yet his ties with Jewish tradition had been almost severed. In 'Der Prozess', K. is confronted with an accusation he doesn't understand and which is actually never articulated, still he is declared guilty, even though he doesn't understand of what, just like Jews in Western and Central Europe in that period. They were guilty of being Jewish, and still wanting to participate in gentile society. Guilty of being 'different', even as, or maybe because, they were assimilating. Just like immigrants in Western societies today, he doesn't know the rules of the game, because he is new to it: not the laws, or etiquette, but those hard to understand unwritten rules of how things work in societies. As long as you don't play according to those 'rules', you will be an outsider. If you belong to a minority, that could easily be forever. It may be because you don't eat pork, or because you can't participate in social talk at work about your Christmas celebration. Whatever it is, you typically are not aware of it yourself, but it is something that will make you guilty of being 'different'. As I said, no interpretation does justice to this great work of literature. It hurts me when someone finds it boring. But I guess it is no easy reading, it takes an effort to enter K.'s world. But if you do, it is an experience of haunting, almost magical beauty. Manja Ressler From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 16:31:27 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Aron Trauring) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:31:27 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Joseph K. and the human condition In-Reply-To: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2AC@SERVER1> References: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2AC@SERVER1> Message-ID: <409FA04F.8010709@zoteca.com> In re: Barry's comments. While it is always interesting to know the personal and social context of a writer, great writing always transcends the particular events of the author's life. Dr. Wisse as well, in her book, contextualizes Kafka and the Trial in terms of his inner conflicts between his Jewish/Yiddish identity and his being a a "foreign" German writer, a Jew no less. While these personal tidbits are important in understanding the person Kafka and his attitude towards his own writings, they don't really explain the universal appeal of this book. When Schocken came out with the new translation, they held an event in New York's Town Hall in celebration of the book, and several thousand people of all races and religions came out in the middle of the week to hear lectures on Kafka and the Trial. If the book was merely about Kafka's fight with his fiance or his inferiority/superiority complexes as a Jew writing in German, I don't imagine his writing would get such a deep response from so varied an audience. I found The Trial terribly engrossing. I read it over a short period of a few days. The question Dr. Wisse, raises is precisely the question of this book. Is the human condition inherently one of guilt? Are any of us innocent? How can we live with that guilt? Kafka seems to conclude that we can't - it's a very dark and claustrophobic book, without any ray of light. One can also give a Christian interpretation to the story - man born in sin, Joseph K. crucified for the universal guilt of mankind. Of course, for Kafka there is no resurrection. One only need open the morning newspaper to see the insights Kafka had into human nature. Which then raises the question. Kafka was a Jew whose Jewish identity played a central role in his life. But what makes The Trial a part of the *Jewish* canon? Aron Trauring Although I am part of the technical team that works on the NGFP website and this project, I am also an avid reader of books, Jewish and otherwise. I grew up in New York within a modern orthodox Jewish/European family with refugee parents. Although I and my family lived in Israel for 19 years (most of us are now back in New York) I always identified myself as a Jew from New York, which for my generation has more Yiddish/European, intellectual and secular connotations than it has today. When visiting Prague a couple of years ago I discovered that one of my renowned ancestors was from there. One might argue that New York replaced Prague after WWII. From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 16:56:41 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 08:56:41 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Joseph K. and the human condition References: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2AC@SERVER1> <409FA04F.8010709@zoteca.com> Message-ID: <000f01c436a7$627c2d00$6c02a8c0@isaac> Aron asks, "what makes THE TRIAL part of the Jewish canon? The question regarding the Jewish appeal of this book is rather riviting, in my opinion. The book to me represents something personal, such as guilt and the human mind, but also speaks of something more universal which is persecution and alienation, which we, as Jews, are all too familiar with in our own lives. Does Kafka's character K look at persecution in any universal way? If so, how? Is it a persecution and alienation that speaks beyond the individual to the collective society of Jews? Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aron Trauring" To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:31 AM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Joseph K. and the human condition > In re: Barry's comments. While it is always interesting to know the > personal and social context of a writer, great writing always transcends > the particular events of the author's life. Dr. Wisse as well, in her > book, contextualizes Kafka and the Trial in terms of his inner conflicts > between his Jewish/Yiddish identity and his being a a "foreign" German > writer, a Jew no less. While these personal tidbits are important in > understanding the person Kafka and his attitude towards his own > writings, they don't really explain the universal appeal of this book. > > When Schocken came out with the new translation, they held an event in > New York's Town Hall in celebration of the book, and several thousand > people of all races and religions came out in the middle of the week to > hear lectures on Kafka and the Trial. If the book was merely about > Kafka's fight with his fiance or his inferiority/superiority complexes > as a Jew writing in German, I don't imagine his writing would get such a > deep response from so varied an audience. > > I found The Trial terribly engrossing. I read it over a short period of > a few days. The question Dr. Wisse, raises is precisely the question of > this book. Is the human condition inherently one of guilt? Are any of us > innocent? How can we live with that guilt? Kafka seems to conclude that > we can't - it's a very dark and claustrophobic book, without any ray of > light. One can also give a Christian interpretation to the story - man > born in sin, Joseph K. crucified for the universal guilt of mankind. Of > course, for Kafka there is no resurrection. One only need open the > morning newspaper to see the insights Kafka had into human nature. > > Which then raises the question. Kafka was a Jew whose Jewish identity > played a central role in his life. But what makes The Trial a part of > the *Jewish* canon? > > Aron Trauring > Although I am part of the technical team that works on the NGFP website > and this project, I am also an avid reader of books, Jewish and > otherwise. I grew up in New York within a modern orthodox > Jewish/European family with refugee parents. Although I and my family > lived in Israel for 19 years (most of us are now back in New York) I > always identified myself as a Jew from New York, which for my generation > has more Yiddish/European, intellectual and secular connotations than it > has today. When visiting Prague a couple of years ago I discovered that > one of my renowned ancestors was from there. One might argue that New > York replaced Prague after WWII. > ________________________________________________ > NGFP-BookClub mailing list > NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org > http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub > Nahum Goldmann Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ > Jewish Heritage Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/ > Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/ From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 21:06:55 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:06:55 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] On to Kafka References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040507082927.00bca978@imap.fas.harvard.edu> <000f01c4343d$099fe620$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: <001b01c436ca$5c9440d0$2e011ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4371E.29073020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The Trial" deals with some of my deepest fears. If I am driving down = the highway and I see a police car in my rearview mirror I breathe a = sigh of relief as it passes me. During World War 2 I was in the army, = and it was with great relief that I took off my uniform. Israel makes = me uneasy. Jewish generals, prime ministers and bureaucrats. What have = Jews to do with that michegass where human beings control and manipulate = other human beings? Uniforms, hierarchy, corporate or government = bureaucracies! Watch out! Yiddle! You who admire Emma Goldman and Pyotr = Kropotkin. My daughter is brillliant having won a National Merit Scholarship. In = addition she won a scholarship to NYU which sent her during her = university years on visits to meet dignitaries in Israel, Italy and = England. She became a polyglot and was offered a position with the US = dplomatic service. It was a great worry to me that she would go into = that service. As a diplomat one must exercise duplicity, and the = diplomatic service gives cover to such unsavory people as CIA agents. My = daughter might become inbvolved with one of THEM. It was a relief to me = that she works with culturally deprived children in the Wilmington, DE = One son is a professor of anthropology at William and Mary, and the = other is a research biochemist. Unfortunately, the professor has some = administrative duties but is so far more a professor than a member of = the university's bureaucracy or command structure. The biochemist is a = scientist and not involved with corporate management at all. Kafka worked for an insurance company. He was part of a bureaucracy, and = I feel he must have had considerable unease to be in such a position. I = have been both an independent consultant and and worked for large = corporations. The last one I worked for was Philips, the Dutch = electronics giant. Although I had a good wage and was able to retire to = a tropical paradise in Australia I always felt as though I was playing a = role poorly - autistic to corporate ways. It is a marvelous book. K. gets sexual signals from many women and = recognises many of the signals. However, when it comes to dealing with = the mysterious workings of bureaucracy K. has a hunter-gatherer brain = which works quite well on a sexual level. As a Jew his contact with = power is as a visitor to a strange land. With bureacracies and their = mysterious ways he is at sea. Historically, we have had court Jews who = dealt with that sort of thing, but most Jews have been like Tevye. We = now have many creatures like Kissinger since we are accepted in western = countries as eligible to be part of ther power structure. There was an old vaudeville routine with Gaxton and Moore. Victor Moore = has been charged with a trivial offense and subject to a $2 dollar fine. = Gaxton as his seedy lawyer vows to fight the charge while Moore keeps = pleading, "Pay the man the $2." As Moore is led off to the electric = chair he still plaintively cries, "Pay the man the $2." David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4371E.29073020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"The Trial" deals with some of = my deepest=20 fears. If I am driving down the highway and I see a police car in my = rearview=20 mirror I breathe a sigh of relief as it passes me. During World War = 2 I was=20 in the army, and it was with great relief that I took off my = uniform. =20 Israel makes me uneasy. Jewish generals, prime ministers and = bureaucrats. What=20 have Jews to do with that michegass where human beings control and = manipulate=20 other human beings? Uniforms, hierarchy, corporate or government=20 bureaucracies! Watch out! Yiddle! You who admire Emma Goldman and Pyotr=20 Kropotkin.
 
My daughter is brillliant = having won a=20 National Merit Scholarship. In addition she won a scholarship to NYU = which sent=20 her during her university years on visits to meet dignitaries in = Israel,=20 Italy and England. She became a polyglot and was offered a position with = the US=20 dplomatic service. It was a great worry to me that she would go into = that=20 service. As a diplomat one must exercise duplicity, and the diplomatic = service=20 gives cover to such unsavory people as CIA agents. My daughter might = become=20 inbvolved with one of THEM. It was a relief to me that she works = with=20 culturally deprived children in the Wilmington, DE  One = son is a=20 professor of anthropology at William and Mary, and the other = is a=20 research biochemist. Unfortunately, the professor has some = administrative duties=20 but is so far more a professor than a member of the university's = bureaucracy or=20 command structure. The biochemist is a scientist and not involved with = corporate=20 management at all.
 
Kafka worked for an insurance = company. He=20 was part of a bureaucracy, and I = feel he=20 must have had considerable unease to be in such a position. I have been = both an=20 independent consultant and and worked for large corporations. The last = one I=20 worked for was Philips, the Dutch electronics giant. Although I had a = good wage=20 and was able to retire to a tropical paradise in Australia I always felt = as=20 though I was playing a role poorly - autistic to corporate=20 ways.
 
It is a marvelous book. K. gets = sexual=20 signals from many women and recognises many of the = signals. However, when=20 it comes to dealing with the mysterious workings of bureaucracy K. has a = hunter-gatherer brain which works quite well on a sexual level. As a Jew = his=20 contact with power is as a visitor to a strange = land. With=20 bureacracies and their mysterious ways he is at sea. Historically, we = have had=20 court Jews who dealt with that sort of thing, but most Jews = have been like=20 Tevye. We now have many creatures like Kissinger since we are = accepted in=20 western countries as eligible to be part of ther power = structure.
 
There was an old vaudeville = routine with=20 Gaxton and Moore. Victor Moore has been charged with a trivial offense = and=20 subject to a $2 dollar fine. Gaxton as his seedy lawyer vows to = fight the=20 charge while Moore keeps pleading, "Pay the man the $2." As Moore is led = off to=20 the electric chair he still plaintively cries, "Pay the man the=20 $2."
 
David = Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4371E.29073020-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 22:56:24 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (matustik07) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 23:56:24 +0200 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial In-Reply-To: <000b01c4369c$f2b9d6c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Hf7+BSQv2Tnv9BisStoPaQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am an visual artist from Slovakia, who lived in Prague during the Totalitarian regime, in this time Prague had a nickname "Kafkarna" which can not be properly translated into English, if we would translate this exactly it would be : Kafka,s city. What was ment by this nickname at this time was the absurdity of the totalitarian regime, the feeling of the people, the hopelessnes and etc. Some people were fascinating by reading Kafka,s work and also Dostojevskij, they became one of the charcter from the book. For me the book Methamorphysis where the Coacrouche is finaly bitten to its death is also presenting a human who lives in a society where beying diferent is not aceptable. I made an multimedia project which huge textile statue based on Kafka,s novel, and also I wonn a price for that piece in Hungary,Budapest, later I have been questioning myself, why kafka ? Do I recognize myself also as a victim of that strange nightmare ? I choosed this beetle for personal reason too, but my beetle statue was put on a piedestal as a postmodern hero, who could of been everyone and everywhere.My hero did not die, he made people smile. This was my way how I delt with Kafka,s feeling. I am sure that the democracy was not such excelent in Prague where Kafka lived as a German speaking Jew and he wanted to write not to work in Bank !!!So there is this inner fighting how to be an artist and how to support onesef.For me there are two major pictues of a Jew in art, one who as Kafka, J. Roth, P.Levi and some others, are the Jews who are somehow crucified or they choose to be, and the others those who survive and became a mesingers L.Frankl, E.Wiesel etc.The novel Tryal was just to much for me, we lived that in reall life in1980, so how was it posible to read it also and not to be sucked inside the book.Certainly not a healthy way of living, If someone wants to see my "coacrouche" based on Kafka,s novel there is a photo of it, among file "works" on my web. www.http://kyrastudio.szm.sk/ I hope I did not so much mistakes in my writen English, sorry for that. -=x=- Skontrolované antivírovým programom NOD32 --Boundary_(ID_Hf7+BSQv2Tnv9BisStoPaQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
 
I am an visual artist from Slovakia, who lived in Prague during the Totalitarian regime, in this time Prague had a nickname "Kafkarna" which can not be properly translated into English, if we would translate this exactly it would be : Kafka,s city. What was ment by this nickname at this time was the absurdity of the totalitarian regime, the feeling of the people, the hopelessnes and etc. Some people were fascinating by reading Kafka,s work and also Dostojevskij, they became one of the charcter from the book. For me the book Methamorphysis where the Coacrouche is finaly bitten to  its death is also presenting a human who lives in a society where beying diferent is not aceptable. I made an multimedia project which huge textile statue  based on Kafka,s novel, and also I wonn a price for that piece in Hungary,Budapest, later I have been questioning myself, why kafka ? Do I recognize myself also as a victim of that strange nightmare ? I choosed this beetle for personal reason too, but my beetle statue was put on a piedestal as a postmodern hero, who could of been everyone and everywhere.My hero did not die, he made people smile. This was my way how I delt with Kafka,s feeling. I am sure that the democracy was not such excelent in Prague where Kafka lived as a German speaking Jew and he wanted to write not to work in Bank !!!So there is this inner fighting how to be an artist and how to support onesef.For me there are two major pictues of a Jew in art, one who as Kafka, J. Roth, P.Levi and some others, are the Jews who are somehow crucified  or they choose to be, and the others those who survive and became a mesingers L.Frankl, E.Wiesel etc.The novel Tryal was just to much for me, we lived that in reall life in1980, so how was it posible to read it also and not to be sucked inside the book.Certainly not a healthy way of living, If someone wants to see my "coacrouche"  based on Kafka,s novel there is a photo of it, among file "works" on my web. www.http://kyrastudio.szm.sk/
I hope I did not so much mistakes in my writen English, sorry for that.

-=x=-
Skontrolované antivírovým programom NOD32
--Boundary_(ID_Hf7+BSQv2Tnv9BisStoPaQ)-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 23:30:32 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Heidi Meyerson) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] "We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040510044024.00bd23c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20040510223032.37275.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> --0-1453290269-1084228232=:35998 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" - Kafka. Perhaps the same could be said of writing. "The Trial" is an imaginative, ambiguous novel. We understand what Kafka is saying on a literal level, yet each of us interprets him differently. He imparts no single "message" but rather shares his personal imagery and original view of things. That is why he is such a difficult writer to "pin down" and why his work doesn't date. Like a piece of art, which it is, it lives through the audience's interaction - we make of it what we will, we bounce our insights off his canvas, and still we are never quite sure whether we are any nearer to the core of the writer's own intent. What struck me personally as an appropriate simile to the "Jewish condition" (as oppposed to the human one) - were the persuausive arguments both for and against no particular point, and any point in particular, such as in chapter VII: Lawyer-Manufacturer-Painter. I imagine this to be like the "Talmudic arguments" so many yeshiva students engage in, or the intricate maze of Jewish halacha or simply points of "Jewish logic" - all of which are very real to those involved, but which to those excluded (voluntarily & involuntarily), appear to be a contained "other world", even an irrelevant one. Much like the tunnels & passages which can cause such nausea as K. experienced. On a broader scale, TheTrial illustrates the futile spat with beaurocracy - haven't we all experienced that on one level or another? From having one's car unfairly towed to seeking hard-to-obtain travel visa's or having to find "necessary" legal documents to prove oneself for one reason or another. Until eventually, from exhaustion or confusion, we too "give up" and accept that whether guilty or not, our societies are leaglistic warrens, with illusionistic mirrors and false exits, and sometimes the only release it appears is to "pay the fine", incur the lawyer's costs, pay the bribe or run gladly towards one's executioners... I have only two more points, so please bear with me: When The Trial was first written, it was indeed written for an audience. Max Brod thought of it as a black commedy, and written in 1914 before its hellish constructs became reality in subsequent world wars, it may have been. My copy of the book - translated from the German by Willa and Edwin Muir, records Max Brod as saying: "We friends of his laughed quite immoderatly when he first let us hear the first chapter of The Trial. And he himself (Kafka) laughed so much that there were moments when he couldn't read any further". Finally, here is a poem written by Edmund Wilson in response to those critics who claim to have a definitive understanding of Kafka: With a rumble-de-bum and a pifka-pafka, Came the fief-and-drum corps parading for Kafka. Full of multiple meanings and sotto voces, They had more and more grown to resemble roaches: Thus debasing themselves, they drew close to the Master And could crawl into cracks to avoid disaster. Regards to all, Heidi Meyerson (I was born in South Africa and now live in New Zealand. I attended the 13th NGP in Melbourne, Dec 2003). --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-1453290269-1084228232=:35998 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

"We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" - Kafka.

Perhaps the same could be said of writing. 

"The Trial" is an imaginative, ambiguous novel.  We understand what Kafka is saying on a literal level, yet each of us interprets him differently.  He imparts no single "message" but rather shares his personal imagery and original view of things.  That is why he is such a difficult writer to "pin down" and why his work doesn't date.  Like a piece of art, which it is, it lives through the audience's interaction - we make of it what we will, we bounce our insights off his canvas, and still we are never quite sure whether we are any nearer to the core of the writer's own intent.

What struck me personally as an appropriate simile to the "Jewish condition" (as oppposed to the human one) - were the persuausive arguments both for and against no particular point, and any point in particular, such as in chapter VII: Lawyer-Manufacturer-Painter.  I imagine this to be like the "Talmudic arguments" so many yeshiva students engage in, or the intricate maze of Jewish halacha or simply points of "Jewish logic" - all of which are very real to those involved, but which to those excluded (voluntarily & involuntarily), appear to be a  contained "other world", even an irrelevant one.  Much like the tunnels & passages which can cause such nausea as K. experienced.

On a broader scale, TheTrial illustrates the futile spat with beaurocracy - haven't we all experienced that on one level or another?  From having one's car unfairly towed to seeking hard-to-obtain travel visa's or having to find "necessary" legal documents to prove oneself for one reason or another.  Until eventually, from exhaustion or confusion, we too "give up" and accept that whether guilty or not, our societies are leaglistic warrens, with illusionistic mirrors and false exits, and sometimes the only release it appears is to "pay the fine", incur the lawyer's costs, pay the bribe or run gladly towards one's executioners...

I have only two more points, so please bear with me:

When The Trial was first written, it was indeed written for an audience.  Max Brod thought of it as a black commedy, and written in 1914 before its hellish constructs became reality in subsequent world wars, it may have been.  My copy of the book - translated from the German by Willa and Edwin Muir, records Max Brod as saying: "We friends of his laughed quite immoderatly when he first let us hear the first chapter of The Trial.  And he himself (Kafka) laughed so much that there were moments when he couldn't read any further".

Finally, here is a poem written by Edmund Wilson in response to those critics who claim to have a definitive understanding of Kafka:

With a rumble-de-bum and a pifka-pafka,

Came the fief-and-drum corps parading for Kafka.

Full of multiple meanings and sotto  voces,

They had more and more grown to resemble roaches:

Thus debasing themselves, they drew close to the Master

And could crawl into cracks to avoid disaster.

 

Regards to all,

Heidi Meyerson

(I was born in South Africa and now live in New Zealand.  I attended the 13th NGP in Melbourne, Dec 2003).

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-1453290269-1084228232=:35998-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 10 23:30:34 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Heidi Meyerson) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] "We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040510044024.00bd23c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20040510223034.24999.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> --0-209829703-1084228234=:23534 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" - Kafka. Perhaps the same could be said of writing. "The Trial" is an imaginative, ambiguous novel. We understand what Kafka is saying on a literal level, yet each of us interprets him differently. He imparts no single "message" but rather shares his personal imagery and original view of things. That is why he is such a difficult writer to "pin down" and why his work doesn't date. Like a piece of art, which it is, it lives through the audience's interaction - we make of it what we will, we bounce our insights off his canvas, and still we are never quite sure whether we are any nearer to the core of the writer's own intent. What struck me personally as an appropriate simile to the "Jewish condition" (as oppposed to the human one) - were the persuausive arguments both for and against no particular point, and any point in particular, such as in chapter VII: Lawyer-Manufacturer-Painter. I imagine this to be like the "Talmudic arguments" so many yeshiva students engage in, or the intricate maze of Jewish halacha or simply points of "Jewish logic" - all of which are very real to those involved, but which to those excluded (voluntarily & involuntarily), appear to be a contained "other world", even an irrelevant one. Much like the tunnels & passages which can cause such nausea as K. experienced. On a broader scale, TheTrial illustrates the futile spat with beaurocracy - haven't we all experienced that on one level or another? From having one's car unfairly towed to seeking hard-to-obtain travel visa's or having to find "necessary" legal documents to prove oneself for one reason or another. Until eventually, from exhaustion or confusion, we too "give up" and accept that whether guilty or not, our societies are leaglistic warrens, with illusionistic mirrors and false exits, and sometimes the only release it appears is to "pay the fine", incur the lawyer's costs, pay the bribe or run gladly towards one's executioners... I have only two more points, so please bear with me: When The Trial was first written, it was indeed written for an audience. Max Brod thought of it as a black commedy, and written in 1914 before its hellish constructs became reality in subsequent world wars, it may have been. My copy of the book - translated from the German by Willa and Edwin Muir, records Max Brod as saying: "We friends of his laughed quite immoderatly when he first let us hear the first chapter of The Trial. And he himself (Kafka) laughed so much that there were moments when he couldn't read any further". Finally, here is a poem written by Edmund Wilson in response to those critics who claim to have a definitive understanding of Kafka: With a rumble-de-bum and a pifka-pafka, Came the fief-and-drum corps parading for Kafka. Full of multiple meanings and sotto voces, They had more and more grown to resemble roaches: Thus debasing themselves, they drew close to the Master And could crawl into cracks to avoid disaster. Regards to all, Heidi Meyerson (I was born in South Africa and now live in New Zealand. I attended the 13th NGP in Melbourne, Dec 2003). --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-209829703-1084228234=:23534 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

"We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" - Kafka.

Perhaps the same could be said of writing. 

"The Trial" is an imaginative, ambiguous novel.  We understand what Kafka is saying on a literal level, yet each of us interprets him differently.  He imparts no single "message" but rather shares his personal imagery and original view of things.  That is why he is such a difficult writer to "pin down" and why his work doesn't date.  Like a piece of art, which it is, it lives through the audience's interaction - we make of it what we will, we bounce our insights off his canvas, and still we are never quite sure whether we are any nearer to the core of the writer's own intent.

What struck me personally as an appropriate simile to the "Jewish condition" (as oppposed to the human one) - were the persuausive arguments both for and against no particular point, and any point in particular, such as in chapter VII: Lawyer-Manufacturer-Painter.  I imagine this to be like the "Talmudic arguments" so many yeshiva students engage in, or the intricate maze of Jewish halacha or simply points of "Jewish logic" - all of which are very real to those involved, but which to those excluded (voluntarily & involuntarily), appear to be a  contained "other world", even an irrelevant one.  Much like the tunnels & passages which can cause such nausea as K. experienced.

On a broader scale, TheTrial illustrates the futile spat with beaurocracy - haven't we all experienced that on one level or another?  From having one's car unfairly towed to seeking hard-to-obtain travel visa's or having to find "necessary" legal documents to prove oneself for one reason or another.  Until eventually, from exhaustion or confusion, we too "give up" and accept that whether guilty or not, our societies are leaglistic warrens, with illusionistic mirrors and false exits, and sometimes the only release it appears is to "pay the fine", incur the lawyer's costs, pay the bribe or run gladly towards one's executioners...

I have only two more points, so please bear with me:

When The Trial was first written, it was indeed written for an audience.  Max Brod thought of it as a black commedy, and written in 1914 before its hellish constructs became reality in subsequent world wars, it may have been.  My copy of the book - translated from the German by Willa and Edwin Muir, records Max Brod as saying: "We friends of his laughed quite immoderatly when he first let us hear the first chapter of The Trial.  And he himself (Kafka) laughed so much that there were moments when he couldn't read any further".

Finally, here is a poem written by Edmund Wilson in response to those critics who claim to have a definitive understanding of Kafka:

With a rumble-de-bum and a pifka-pafka,

Came the fief-and-drum corps parading for Kafka.

Full of multiple meanings and sotto  voces,

They had more and more grown to resemble roaches:

Thus debasing themselves, they drew close to the Master

And could crawl into cracks to avoid disaster.

 

Regards to all,

Heidi Meyerson

(I was born in South Africa and now live in New Zealand.  I attended the 13th NGP in Melbourne, Dec 2003).

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-209829703-1084228234=:23534-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 11 00:59:20 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 16:59:20 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Josef K's problem In-Reply-To: <000b01c4369c$f2b9d6c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: on 5/10/04 7:41 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: I think there are a few possibilities about interpreting K's problem. One is looking at the entire incident of the arrest itself of one of perception, that is to say, a condition entirely of the human mind. I have had a long interest in Kafka, and during my visit to Prague I visited his birthplace and a few of the places where he had lived - at the time, there was a large public exhibition devoted to him. I recently re-read The Castle in the new translation and am now re-reading The Trial in the new Mitchell translation. Reading Kafka leaves me with a feeling of disorientation and entfremdung, even between readings. Clearly there are many possible interpretations of The Trial, since like a dream it is expressed in symbolic language, and as with dreams, the possible interpretations are not mutually exclusive. Like Barbara, I lean towards a psychological interpretation, as suggested by my old teacher, Erich Fromm, who had a great influence on my life. His interpretation, as I remember it, revolves around the double meaning of the word "arrested". It can have the literal meaning of being arrested by the police - Kafka's legal training may have suggested this metaphor to him. But it can also mean arrested (stopped) in one's development as a person i.e. developmental arrest. This is suggested by the description of Josef K's way of life, as described on page 20, the start of chapter 2 of the new translation: work til 9, a short walk, a tavern visit til 11, a weekly visit to a prostitute etc. It is an empty, sterile, routinized life, lacking in love, creativity and productiveness. He has a dim awareness of this, and feels guilty about not developing his potential as a human being i.e. the accusations come from his own conscience. Note that one of the arresting officers is called "Franz". On page 14, the Inspector gives some significant advice: "think less about us and what's going to happen to you, and instead think more about yourself" i.e. the problem is inside himself. The story is about the process (Der Prozess) whereby he attempts to seek answers from others outside himself and to avoid dealing with the real inner problem. The priest too knows what the real problem is, and on page 213, says "you misunderstand the facts of the matter... you seek too much outside help." He becomes frustrated and angry at Josef K's lack of insight, and "seeing a man falling" screams "can't you see two steps in front of you?" The talmudic discussion of the parable "before the law" suggests the same lack of insight, lack of initiative and dependency on others. The developmental arrest also explains why, despite being arrested, he was still able to go about his daily business. The "K" may suggest Kafka, and perhaps the "Josef" refers to the old ghetto of Josefstadt so maybe Kafka is writing about the struggles with his own developmental arrest. Note that the protagonist is aged 30, about Kafka's age when he began working on the novel, which he never finished, and when he got engaged and then dis-engaged. Til age 31, Kafka lived with his parents. In the 20s, one feels free to experiment, to try and find oneself, but at age 30, if one's life does not seem to be going anyplace, one may start to worry about one's ability to grow and develop as a person. Age 30 is significant for Josef K. and for Kafka, as for all of us. This interpretation does not exclude other interpretations about a corrupt, authoritarian society, an arbitrary, confusing bureaucracy, the alienation of the Jew in a society that rejects him, Kafka's problem with his father, inner conflicts over Jewish identity etc. etc. Or seeing Israel as kafkaesque, a place where the unemployed go on strike, where there are two finance ministers neither of whom has a penny, where the rich support the socialist left and the poor support the capitalist right etc. It may also help to explain the universal appeal, since who among us feels him/herself to be a fully-developed person, and who is without some guilt about a lack of full self-realization? Not me, that's for sure. Anyone out there? From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 11 01:43:02 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 17:43:02 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Josef K's problem References: Message-ID: <000c01c436f0$eaa0e380$6c02a8c0@isaac> In response to Phillip Shulman's comment: The irony of ironies is that I am an attorney by profession. Perhaps because of my knowledge of the legal system and its pitfalls, I find the interpretation related to the human mind more compelling and interesting. Some other clues that lead me to believe that the focus is from within: on page l9, there is a quote that talks about "assuming the trial ever comes to an actual conclusion, which I greatly doubt." This sentence leads me to believe that the entire issue is on-going, something that is experienced from within. Within the legal system, especially the criminal one, a person is read the charges, usually a decision is made regarding whether the individual will be confined or detained, then there is some type of hearing. The matter concludes. Here, however, K was free to go (emphasis on the inner will), he was not detained and nor did he know the charges brought against him. All of these factors lead me to believe that the entire process was on-going, to be uncovered and discovered along the way. It was as if here is this man who has been calculating in his personal interactions, neglectful of his job, spiritually bankrupt, so as part of a moral education, he will endure a year trial. Even the Law Offices were sometimes found in the attic, or were located where tenants were among the poorest of poor (pg. 65), once again, leading one to believe that the ordeal was something coming from within the self. Another point, and I will be quite for the evening (you can tell I am obsessed with this book) When K does find the circle of judges, what do they leave behind in their notebooks? Not legal documents, with charges, but a book of erotica, possibly suggesting K's only internal struggle with women and sex. The actual outcome of the trial is almost inevitable, with all the twists and turns that Kafka musters for his reader. I love this book. Each page is like a layer of an onion being unpeeled. I can't wait to see the play when it comes to LA in June! Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Shulman" To: Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:59 PM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Josef K's problem . Reading Kafka leaves me with a feeling of > disorientation and entfremdung, even between readings. Clearly there are > many possible interpretations of The Trial, since like a dream it is > expressed in symbolic language, and as with dreams, the possible > interpretations are not mutually exclusive. Like Barbara, I lean towards a > psychological interpretation, as suggested by my old teacher, Erich Fromm, > who had a great influence on my life. .. From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 11 03:13:38 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Tomer) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 12:13:38 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] out of the depths Message-ID: <00ab01c436fd$9279fb30$0100000a@Tomer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C43751.63F3FEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable reading the fascinating posts re. Kafka's The Trial brought to mind the = Talmudic dictum=20 (Kiddushin 22b) ;=20 'For unto me the children of Israel are slaves, they are My slaves' - = and not slaves of slaves. To read this book is to enter the world of the slave of slaves - the = world of 'keri'/happenstance where one is inevitably, ultimately = impotent as the driven leaf - and to discover, through this reading, = that this nightmarish state is separated by only a hair's breadth from = the world of potency, direction and purpose. From God's slave to slave's = slave is but a miniscule shift in perception. The marvel, to me, is that it is specifically from the depths of this = labyrinthine futility - from this utter desolation and darkness - that = Kafka's brilliance and creativity shines. Deborah Miller (Melbourne) ------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C43751.63F3FEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
reading the fascinating posts re. = Kafka's The=20 Trial brought to mind the Talmudic dictum
(Kiddushin 22b) ; 
=91For=20 unto me the children of Israel are slaves, they are My slaves=92 - =  and not=20 slaves of slaves.
 
To=20 read this book is to enter the world of the slave of slaves - the world = of=20 'keri'/happenstance where one is inevitably, ultimately impotent as the = driven=20 leaf - and to discover, through this reading, that this nightmarish=20 state is separated by only a hair's breadth from the world of = potency,=20 direction and purpose. From God's slave to slave's slave is but a = miniscule=20 shift in perception.
 
The=20 marvel, to me, is that it is specifically from the depths of=20 this labyrinthine futility - from this utter desolation and = darkness=20 - that Kafka's brilliance and creativity = shines.
 
Deborah=20 Miller
(Melbourne)
 
------=_NextPart_000_00A8_01C43751.63F3FEB0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 11 03:57:13 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org) Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 22:57:13 EDT Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial Message-ID: <103.4562655e.2dd19b09@aol.com> --part1_103.4562655e.2dd19b09_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear kyra your english is wonderful your thoughts are very well expressed i have forwarded your web site to my granddaughter who lives and works in prague and appreciates art!! i too have felt the agony as expressed by k in not knowing what it was i could possibly have done wrong, and yet knowing i was guilty of something!! i think it has something to do with the bsic general human condition maybe we are all conditioned to fear and feel guilt maybe it is part of our jewish "genes" and maybe it is society that inflicts this upon us knowingly as a teacher i was always aware of how easy it could be ..with just a look .. to cause a student to feel as though something was wrong i hope i never used this awesome power thank you for sharing your thoughts and sharing your wonderful art brenda --part1_103.4562655e.2dd19b09_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dear kyra
your english is wonderful
your thoughts are very well expressed
i have forwarded your web site to my granddaughter who lives and works in pr= ague and appreciates art!!
i too have felt the agony as expressed by k in not knowing what it was i cou= ld possibly have done wrong, and yet knowing  i was guilty of somethin= g!!
i think it has something to do with the bsic general human condition
maybe we are all conditioned to fear and feel guilt
maybe it is part of our jewish "genes"
and maybe it is society that inflicts this upon us knowingly
as a teacher  i was always aware of how easy it could be ..with just a= look .. to cause a student to feel as though something was wrong
i hope i never used this awesome power
thank you for  sharing your thoughts and sharing your wonderful art brenda

 --part1_103.4562655e.2dd19b09_boundary-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 12 10:25:50 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 05:25:50 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040512043941.00bc5578@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_4943562==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The discussion has become very absorbing. Here is a book that not only allows for interpretation, but demands it. This may also be why so many people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in all that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of helping him out of his condition. But the book itself is pitiless in its treatment of him. When you consider how much sentiment Sholem Aleichem musters for his character Tevye, you realize how unsentimentally Kafka treats his character K. The laughter over this character that Heidi reminds us of must have been laced with anxiety. Kafka's circle recognized the condition that was being mocked. Readers will obviously decide for themselves whether they think this book belongs in the Jewish canon. I feel I need the book in the Jewish canon because this is its most powerful study of deracination. Joseph is a classical Jewish name, but K's truncated last name is a sign of all that is missing in his identity. He has no society, no enveloping family, no culture, no memories (but one). In many synagogues, the inscription over the ark reads, "Know before whom you stand." K. experiences the opposite. He has no such knowledge. He starts out thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of reason is enough for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance after all. As his search escalates, he seeks the ultimate assurance that used to come in the house of God, but since he is even less than a tourist, the place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of security. Jews who joined modern society often felt how much they gained by becoming unidentifiable citizens of the majority culture. Among its many other aspects, The Trial demonstrates how much they lost. --=====================_4943562==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" The discussion has become very absorbing. Here is a book that not only allows for interpretation, but demands it. This may also be why so many people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in all that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of helping him out of his condition. But the book itself is pitiless in its treatment of him. When you consider how much sentiment Sholem Aleichem musters for his character Tevye, you realize how unsentimentally Kafka treats his character K. The laughter over this character that Heidi reminds us of must have been laced with anxiety. Kafka's circle recognized the condition that was being mocked.

Readers will obviously decide for themselves whether they think this book belongs in the Jewish canon. I feel I need the book in the Jewish canon because this is its most powerful study of deracination. Joseph is a classical Jewish name, but K's truncated last name is a sign of all that is missing in his identity. He has no society, no enveloping family, no culture, no memories (but one). In many synagogues, the inscription over the ark reads, "Know before whom you stand." K. experiences the opposite. He has no such knowledge. He starts out thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of reason is enough for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance after all. As his search escalates, he seeks the ultimate assurance that used to come in the house of God, but since he is even less than a tourist, the place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of security. 

Jews who joined modern society often felt how much they gained by becoming unidentifiable citizens of the majority culture. Among its many other aspects, The Trial  demonstrates how much they lost. --=====================_4943562==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 12 12:38:49 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Robert Berman) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 04:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] a small aside In-Reply-To: <20040510223032.37275.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040512113849.65779.qmail@web50904.mail.yahoo.com> --0-754446230-1084361929=:65533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I hope you will indulge this small aside: I often play, and wrestle, with my 13 nieces and nephews. When I get tired, I tell them "they are free to go but they must never forget that they are under arrest." I also don't release my grip on them until they say "Beowoulf." They laugh and laugh and think Uncle Robby is just being silly. But I think, and I hope, that these little literary references will give them a special affinity to these great works of art which hopefully they will read one day. Robby Berman I attended the fellowship in Sweden in 2001 and I am the director of the Halachic Organ Donor Society (www.hods.org) Heidi Meyerson wrote: "We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" - Kafka. Perhaps the same could be said of writing. "The Trial" is an imaginative, ambiguous novel. We understand what Kafka is saying on a literal level, yet each of us interprets him differently. He imparts no single "message" but rather shares his personal imagery and original view of things. That is why he is such a difficult writer to "pin down" and why his work doesn't date. Like a piece of art, which it is, it lives through the audience's interaction - we make of it what we will, we bounce our insights off his canvas, and still we are never quite sure whether we are any nearer to the core of the writer's own intent. What struck me personally as an appropriate simile to the "Jewish condition" (as oppposed to the human one) - were the persuausive arguments both for and against no particular point, and any point in particular, such as in chapter VII: Lawyer-Manufacturer-Painter. I imagine this to be like the "Talmudic arguments" so many yeshiva students engage in, or the intricate maze of Jewish halacha or simply points of "Jewish logic" - all of which are very real to those involved, but which to those excluded (voluntarily & involuntarily), appear to be a contained "other world", even an irrelevant one. Much like the tunnels & passages which can cause such nausea as K. experienced. On a broader scale, TheTrial illustrates the futile spat with beaurocracy - haven't we all experienced that on one level or another? From having one's car unfairly towed to seeking hard-to-obtain travel visa's or having to find "necessary" legal documents to prove oneself for one reason or another. Until eventually, from exhaustion or confusion, we too "give up" and accept that whether guilty or not, our societies are leaglistic warrens, with illusionistic mirrors and false exits, and sometimes the only release it appears is to "pay the fine", incur the lawyer's costs, pay the bribe or run gladly towards one's executioners... I have only two more points, so please bear with me: When The Trial was first written, it was indeed written for an audience. Max Brod thought of it as a black commedy, and written in 1914 before its hellish constructs became reality in subsequent world wars, it may have been. My copy of the book - translated from the German by Willa and Edwin Muir, records Max Brod as saying: "We friends of his laughed quite immoderatly when he first let us hear the first chapter of The Trial. And he himself (Kafka) laughed so much that there were moments when he couldn't read any further". Finally, here is a poem written by Edmund Wilson in response to those critics who claim to have a definitive understanding of Kafka: With a rumble-de-bum and a pifka-pafka, Came the fief-and-drum corps parading for Kafka. Full of multiple meanings and sotto voces, They had more and more grown to resemble roaches: Thus debasing themselves, they drew close to the Master And could crawl into cracks to avoid disaster. Regards to all, Heidi Meyerson (I was born in South Africa and now live in New Zealand. I attended the 13th NGP in Melbourne, Dec 2003). --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs Robert Berman Founder & Director Halachic Organ Donor Society 111 Eighth Avenue/ 11th Floor New York, NY 10011 Phone: 212-213-5087 Fax: 212-213-9451 www.hods.org --0-754446230-1084361929=:65533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I hope you will indulge this small aside:
 
I often play, and wrestle, with my 13 nieces and nephews. When I get tired, I tell them "they are free to go but they must never forget that they are under arrest." I also don't release my grip on them until they say "Beowoulf."
 
They laugh and laugh and think Uncle Robby is just being silly. But I think, and I hope, that these little literary references will give them a special affinity to these great works of art which hopefully they will read one day.
 
Robby Berman
I attended the fellowship in Sweden in 2001 and I am the director of the Halachic Organ Donor Society (www.hods.org)

Heidi Meyerson <hmmeyerson@yahoo.com> wrote:

"We photograph things to drive them out of our minds" - Kafka.

Perhaps the same could be said of writing. 

"The Trial" is an imaginative, ambiguous novel.  We understand what Kafka is saying on a literal level, yet each of us interprets him differently.  He imparts no single "message" but rather shares his personal imagery and original view of things.  That is why he is such a difficult writer to "pin down" and why his work doesn't date.  Like a piece of art, which it is, it lives through the audience's interaction - we make of it what we will, we bounce our insights off his canvas, and still we are never quite sure whether we are any nearer to the core of the writer's own intent.

What struck me personally as an appropriate simile to the "Jewish condition" (as oppposed to the human one) - were the persuausive arguments both for and against no particular point, and any point in particular, such as in chapter VII: Lawyer-Manufacturer-Painter.  I imagine this to be like the "Talmudic arguments" so many yeshiva students engage in, or the intricate maze of Jewish halacha or simply points of "Jewish logic" - all of which are very real to those involved, but which to those excluded (voluntarily & involuntarily), appear to be a  contained "other world", even an irrelevant one.  Much like the tunnels & passages which can cause such nausea as K. experienced.

On a broader scale, TheTrial illustrates the futile spat with beaurocracy - haven't we all experienced that on one level or another?  From having one's car unfairly towed to seeking hard-to-obtain travel visa's or having to find "necessary" legal documents to prove oneself for one reason or another.  Until eventually, from exhaustion or confusion, we too "give up" and accept that whether guilty or not, our societies are leaglistic warrens, with illusionistic mirrors and false exits, and sometimes the only release it appears is to "pay the fine", incur the lawyer's costs, pay the bribe or run gladly towards one's executioners...

I have only two more points, so please bear with me:

When The Trial was first written, it was indeed written for an audience.  Max Brod thought of it as a black commedy, and written in 1914 before its hellish constructs became reality in subsequent world wars, it may have been.  My copy of the book - translated from the German by Willa and Edwin Muir, records Max Brod as saying: "We friends of his laughed quite immoderatly when he first let us hear the first chapter of The Trial.  And he himself (Kafka) laughed so much that there were moments when he couldn't read any further".

Finally, here is a poem written by Edmund Wilson in response to those critics who claim to have a definitive understanding of Kafka:

With a rumble-de-bum and a pifka-pafka,

Came the fief-and-drum corps parading for Kafka.

Full of multiple meanings and sotto  voces,

They had more and more grown to resemble roaches:

Thus debasing themselves, they drew close to the Master

And could crawl into cracks to avoid disaster.

 

Regards to all,

Heidi Meyerson

(I was born in South Africa and now live in New Zealand.  I attended the 13th NGP in Melbourne, Dec 2003).

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs


Robert Berman
Founder & Director


Halachic Organ Donor Society
111 Eighth Avenue/ 11th Floor
New York, NY 10011
Phone: 212-213-5087
Fax: 212-213-9451

www.hods.org

 
--0-754446230-1084361929=:65533-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 12 17:43:48 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:43:48 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040512043941.00bc5578@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c43840$4ca6d1c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C43805.A03275F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In answer to Ruth Wisse: I feel that this book belongs in the Jewish canon. To classify the character K as Jewish may be separate and distinct from = considering him as a symbol for Jewish and Jewish values. Joseph is a Jewish name, it is true, but there is nothing in this book, = The Trial, that would lead me to believe that K as a character stands = for anything Jewish per se. Tomer made an excellent comment about being = a stranger among strangers, and this is particularly significant if we = look at the character of K. Even when he is in his most profound state = of hopelessness, feeling totally impotent, he does not pray. From what I = remember, the word God is not used at all in the story. He does not = participate in Jewish ritual nor see himself culturally as a member of a = Jewish group. The house of God where he goes is not a Jewish one, but = cathedral, with a priest nonetheless rather than a rabbi. Separate is the issue of whether the themes in this book denote "Jewish" = and are related to Jewish values. As I stated before, at the most = personal level, K is persecuted and alienated from all those around him, = which is how we as Jews have felt since telling the Passover story. We = have been kicked out of every country, meant to feel different, = persecuted, from the Pogroms to the Holocaust to the present day = struggle for Israel to continue as a Jewish state. We feel impotent, as = K does, in some situations, but unlike K, as Jews, our feelings do not = lead us to resignation, to hopelessness...we stand up and fight, take = action in most situations. K resigned himself, to some extent, to being = a victim of his own mind.=20 Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ruth wisse=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:25 AM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial The discussion has become very absorbing. Here is a book that not only = allows for interpretation, but demands it. This may also be why so many = people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in = all that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of = helping him out of his condition. But the book itself is pitiless in its = treatment of him. When you consider how much sentiment Sholem Aleichem = musters for his character Tevye, you realize how unsentimentally Kafka = treats his character K. The laughter over this character that Heidi = reminds us of must have been laced with anxiety. Kafka's circle = recognized the condition that was being mocked.=20 Readers will obviously decide for themselves whether they think this = book belongs in the Jewish canon. I feel I need the book in the Jewish = canon because this is its most powerful study of deracination. Joseph is = a classical Jewish name, but K's truncated last name is a sign of all = that is missing in his identity. He has no society, no enveloping = family, no culture, no memories (but one). In many synagogues, the = inscription over the ark reads, "Know before whom you stand." K. = experiences the opposite. He has no such knowledge. He starts out = thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of reason is enough = for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance after all. = As his search escalates, he seeks the ultimate assurance that used to = come in the house of God, but since he is even less than a tourist, the = place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of security. =20 Jews who joined modern society often felt how much they gained by = becoming unidentifiable citizens of the majority culture. Among its many = other aspects, The Trial demonstrates how much they lost. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C43805.A03275F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In answer to Ruth Wisse:
I feel that this book belongs in the = Jewish=20 canon.
 
To classify the character K as Jewish = may be=20 separate and distinct from considering him as a symbol for Jewish and = Jewish=20 values.
 
Joseph is a Jewish name, it is true, = but there is=20 nothing in this book, The Trial, that would lead me to believe = that K=20 as a character stands for anything Jewish per se. Tomer made an = excellent=20 comment about being a stranger among strangers, and this is particularly = significant if we look at the character of K. Even when he is in his = most=20 profound state of hopelessness, feeling totally impotent, he does not = pray. From=20 what I remember, the word God is not used at all in the story. He does = not=20 participate in Jewish ritual nor see himself culturally as a member of a = Jewish=20 group. The house of God where he goes is not a Jewish one, but = cathedral, with a=20 priest nonetheless rather than a rabbi.
 
Separate is the issue of whether the = themes in this=20 book denote "Jewish" and are related to Jewish values. As I stated = before, at=20 the most personal level, K is persecuted and alienated from all those = around=20 him, which is how we as Jews have felt since telling the Passover story. = We have=20 been kicked out of every country, meant to feel different, persecuted, = from the=20 Pogroms to the Holocaust to the present day struggle for Israel to = continue as a=20 Jewish state. We feel impotent, as K does, in some situations, but = unlike K, as=20 Jews, our feelings do not lead us to resignation, to hopelessness...we = stand up=20 and fight, take action in most situations. K resigned himself, to some = extent,=20 to being a victim of his own mind.
 
Barbara S. Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ruth=20 wisse
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 = 2:25=20 AM
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The = Trial

The discussion has become very absorbing. Here is a = book that=20 not only allows for interpretation, but demands it. This may also be = why so=20 many people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to = fill in=20 all that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of = helping=20 him out of his condition. But the book itself is pitiless in its = treatment of=20 him. When you consider how much sentiment Sholem Aleichem musters for = his=20 character Tevye, you realize how unsentimentally Kafka treats his = character K.=20 The laughter over this character that Heidi reminds us of must have = been laced=20 with anxiety. Kafka's circle recognized the condition that was being = mocked.=20

Readers will obviously decide for themselves whether they = think this=20 book belongs in the Jewish canon. I feel I need the book in the = Jewish=20 canon because this is its most powerful study of deracination. Joseph = is a=20 classical Jewish name, but K's truncated last name is a sign of all = that is=20 missing in his identity. He has no society, no enveloping family, no = culture,=20 no memories (but one). In many synagogues, the inscription over the = ark reads,=20 "Know before whom you stand." K. experiences the opposite. He has no = such=20 knowledge. He starts out thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the = apple=20 of reason is enough for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs = guidance after all. As his search escalates, he seeks the ultimate = assurance=20 that used to come in the house of God, but since he is even less than = a=20 tourist, the place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of=20 security. 

Jews who joined modern society often felt how = much=20 they gained by becoming unidentifiable citizens of the majority = culture. Among=20 its many other aspects, The Trial  demonstrates how much = they=20 lost. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C43805.A03275F0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 12 18:42:59 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Aron Trauring) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 13:42:59 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] What is Jewish about K. In-Reply-To: <000d01c43840$4ca6d1c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040512043941.00bc5578@imap.fas.harvard.edu> <000d01c43840$4ca6d1c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: <40A26223.1010105@zoteca.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070500050701070304070107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Barbara makes an interesting point which I would like to expand on a bit. Salo Baron often complained about those who take "the lachrymose view of Jewish history," i.e. Jews who see suffering and persecution as an "essential" part of Jewish identity. While these are certainly part of the Jewish experience, they are not unique to Jews at all. Both persecution and the alienation of the "modern man" felt by K., are quite a universal experience. Not only is the experience not specifically Jewish, neither is his response. Kafka was a Jew who grappled with issues of Jewish identity. K appears to be neither. As Prof Wisse said, he is so deracinated, he appears not even to be antagonistic to his Jewish identity - he seems to have reached a total state of indifference to it. And yet one might give this as a counter argument: One of the key differences between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism emphasizes faith in or through the Law while Christianity emphasize faith in or through a direct relationship with God. K. is a man who grapples with the issue of the intersection of Law and Justice - a crisis of Jewish faith. Tevye by contrast is grappling with his direct relationship with God - a concept reintroduced into Judaism through the Hasidic movement (which was attacked precisely for de-emphasizing the law). One might argue that only in a Jewish book could The Law play so central a role. > Separate is the issue of whether the themes in this book denote > "Jewish" and are related to Jewish values. As I stated before, at the > most personal level, K is persecuted and alienated from all those > around him, which is how we as Jews have felt since telling the > Passover story. We have been kicked out of every country, meant to > feel different, persecuted, from the Pogroms to the Holocaust to the > present day struggle for Israel to continue as a Jewish state. We feel > impotent, as K does, in some situations, but unlike K, as Jews, our > feelings do not lead us to resignation, to hopelessness...we stand up > and fight, take action in most situations. K resigned himself, to some > extent, to being a victim of his own mind. > > > > Jews who joined modern society often felt how much they gained by > becoming unidentifiable citizens of the majority culture. Among > its many other aspects, /The Trial/ demonstrates how much they lost. > -- Aron Trauring Zoteca http://www.zoteca.com/ --------------070500050701070304070107 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Barbara makes an interesting point which I would like to expand on a bit. Salo Baron often complained about those who take "the lachrymose view of Jewish history," i.e. Jews who see suffering and persecution as an "essential" part of Jewish identity. While these are certainly part of the Jewish experience, they are not unique to Jews at all. Both persecution and the alienation of the "modern man" felt by K., are  quite a universal experience. Not only is the experience not specifically Jewish, neither is his response. Kafka was a Jew who grappled with issues of Jewish identity. K appears to be neither. As Prof Wisse said, he is so deracinated, he appears not even to be antagonistic to his Jewish identity - he seems to have reached a total state of indifference to it.

And yet one might give this as a counter argument: One of the key differences between Judaism and Christianity is that Judaism emphasizes faith in or through the Law while Christianity emphasize faith in or through a direct relationship with God. K. is a man who grapples with the issue of the intersection of Law and Justice - a crisis of Jewish faith. Tevye by contrast is grappling with his direct relationship with God - a concept reintroduced into Judaism through the Hasidic movement (which was attacked precisely for de-emphasizing the law).

One might argue that only in a Jewish book could The Law play so central a role.

Separate is the issue of whether the themes in this book denote "Jewish" and are related to Jewish values. As I stated before, at the most personal level, K is persecuted and alienated from all those around him, which is how we as Jews have felt since telling the Passover story. We have been kicked out of every country, meant to feel different, persecuted, from the Pogroms to the Holocaust to the present day struggle for Israel to continue as a Jewish state. We feel impotent, as K does, in some situations, but unlike K, as Jews, our feelings do not lead us to resignation, to hopelessness...we stand up and fight, take action in most situations. K resigned himself, to some extent, to being a victim of his own mind.
 


Jews who joined modern society often felt how much they gained by becoming unidentifiable citizens of the majority culture. Among its many other aspects, The Trial  demonstrates how much they lost. 


-- 
Aron Trauring
Zoteca http://www.zoteca.com/
--------------070500050701070304070107-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 02:25:46 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:25:46 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial In-Reply-To: <000d01c43840$4ca6d1c0$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3167231146_2227110_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In response to Barbara and Ruth: In reading the book, Barbara, I felt intuitively that K. was a Jew, though I can't quite explain why. This is despite his going to a Cathedral and talking to a priest. It remings me of the time my reading group read "Confessions of Zeno" by Italo Svevo, a triestine Jew, who as his name implies, was a German-Italian mixture. In reading the book, I had a strong feeling that Zeno was Jewish, despite the fact that he is represented as being Catholic. I mentioned it at the group meeting and several other members said they had the same feeling, though none of us could quite put our finger on why. Is there a kind of characteristic Jewish sensibility that one senses intuitively, or is this just a projection of our own feelings? I do feel that Kafka belongs in the Jewish canon. As always, Ruth, I appreciate your comments, but in some respects my reaction is very different from yours - no great surprise, I guess: the book, lacking specifics, is in some ways a projective test, like the Rorschach, so we all, I think, tend to perceive it in accordance with our own background and personalitiy. Not a question of right or wrong, just different. You say: ...He starts out thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of reason is enough for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance after all... ...people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in all that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of helping him out of his condition. ...the place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of security... In my opinion, this has some validity at the conscious, literal level, but not at a deeper level. The book strikes me as essentially one long dream and so I approach it as a dream. That is, it contains much truth expressed in the language of the dream i.e. in symbolic language whereby the inner emotional life is externalized and represented in the form of events in time and space. Kafka has indeed left much out, as dreams do, but I don't think we need to fill in a lot - rather we need to understand that Kafka has put in a great deal, if we can only learn to interpret it as one interprets a dream i.e. to go from the manifest content to the latent content, and not to be misled by the dream's apparently bizarre surface events. As the Talmud says, "a dream that is not understood is like a letter that has not been opened". I see Kafka's novel as a letter that needs to be opened. Most people (except Jews) thought that dreams were nonsense until Joseph, Freud and others showed how to understand them. We want to humanize K. not "as a way of helping him out of his condition", I think, but because the humanity is really there if we can but understand it, and because we do want to understand it. As in a dream, seemingly minor details tell us much about K.'s problem. For example: The first sentence tells us of K.'s arrest. The second sentence, which may seem like a minor irrelevant detail, contains significant information about his personality: the cook, who normally "brought him breakfast each day around eight" (part of his life's routine) did not appear, and this "had never happened before." As concisely conveyed by Kafka, we see already that he is not self-sufficient, rather he is dependent on being fed by others - this is there throughout the book. The book is full of such "minor details" which are really significant, if we only pay attention. I don't think "he discovers that he needs guidance after all": rather he always tends to look for guidance, from day one, one way or another, as the Inspector and the priest try to tell him - instead of to "think more about yourself", as the Inspector suggests, which could be "a way of helping him out of his condition". The "apple of reason" is certainly there, but I see it more as the common Jewish habit of over-intellectualizing in order not to face one's real feelings and problems. In the church, he felt that "the place mocks him" because he could not hear the priest's good advice that ""you misunderstand the facts of the matter... you seek too much outside help." Again, Kafka's concise statement of the problem, easily overlooked. Best regards to all, Philip on 5/12/04 9:43 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: In answer to Ruth Wisse: I feel that this book belongs in the Jewish canon. To classify the character K as Jewish may be separate and distinct from considering him as a symbol for Jewish and Jewish values... Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: ruth wisse To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:25 AM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial The discussion has become very absorbing. Here is a book that not only allows for interpretation, but demands it. This may also be why so many people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in all that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of helping him out of his condition. Readers will obviously decide for themselves whether they think this book belongs in the Jewish canon.... He has no such knowledge. He starts out thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of reason is enough for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance after all. As his search escalates, he seeks the ultimate assurance that used to come in the house of God, but since he is even less than a tourist, the place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of security. --MS_Mac_OE_3167231146_2227110_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial In response to Barbara and Ruth:

In reading the book,  Barbara, I felt intuitively that K. was a Jew, t= hough I can't quite explain why. This is despite his going to a Cathedral an= d talking to a priest. It remings me of the time my reading group read "= ;Confessions of Zeno" by Italo Svevo, a triestine Jew, who as his name = implies, was a German-Italian mixture. In reading the book, I had a strong f= eeling that Zeno was Jewish, despite the fact that he is represented as bein= g Catholic. I mentioned it at the group meeting and several other members sa= id they had the same feeling, though none of us could quite put our finger o= n why.  Is there a kind of  characteristic Jewish sensibility that= one senses intuitively, or is this just a projection of our own feelings? I= do feel that Kafka belongs in the Jewish canon.

As always, Ruth, I appreciate your comments, but in some respects my reacti= on is very different from yours - no great surprise, I guess: the book, lack= ing specifics, is in some ways a projective test, like the Rorschach,  = so we all, I think, tend to perceive it in accordance with our own backgroun= d and personalitiy.  Not a question of right or wrong, just different. = You say:

...He starts out thinking that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of rea= son is enough for a modern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance af= ter all...

...people look for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in a= ll that Kafka has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of helping h= im out of his condition.

...the place mocks him rather than giving him any sense of security...

In my opinion, this has some validity at the conscious, literal level, but = not at a deeper level. The book strikes me as essentially one long dream and=  so I  approach it as a dream. That is, it contains much truth ex= pressed in the language of the dream i.e. in symbolic language whereby the i= nner emotional life is externalized and represented in the form of events in= time and space. Kafka has indeed left much out,  as dreams do,  b= ut I  don't think we need to fill in a lot - rather we need to understa= nd that Kafka has put in a great deal, if we can only learn to interpret it = as one interprets a dream i.e. to go from the manifest content to the latent= content, and not to be misled by the dream's apparently bizarre surface eve= nts.  As the Talmud says, "a dream that is not understood is like = a letter that has not been opened".  I see Kafka's novel as a lett= er that needs to be opened.  Most people (except Jews) thought that dre= ams were nonsense until  Joseph, Freud and others showed how to underst= and them.
We want to humanize K. not "as a way of helping him out of his conditi= on",  I think, but because the humanity is really there if we can = but understand it, and because we do want to understand it. As in a dream, &= nbsp;seemingly minor details tell us much about K.'s problem.   &n= bsp;          For example:=
The first sentence tells us of K.'s arrest. The second sentence, which may = seem like a minor irrelevant detail, contains significant information about = his personality: the cook, who normally "brought him breakfast each day= around eight"  (part of his life's routine) did not appear, and t= his "had never happened before."  As concisely conveyed by Ka= fka, we see already that he is not self-sufficient,  rather he is depen= dent on being fed by others - this is there throughout the book. The book is= full of such "minor details" which are really significant, if we = only pay attention.  I don't think  "he discovers that= he needs guidance after all": rather he always tends to look fo= r guidance,  from day one,  one way or another, as the Inspector a= nd the priest try to tell him -  instead of  to "think more a= bout yourself",  as the Inspector suggests,
which could  be  "a way of helping him out of his condition&= quot;. The "apple of reason" is certainly there, but I see it more= as the common Jewish habit of over-intellectualizing in order not to face o= ne's real feelings and problems.
In the church, he felt that "the place mocks him" because he coul= d not hear the priest's good advice that ""you misunderstand the f= acts of the matter... you seek too much outside help."  Again, Kaf= ka's concise statement of the problem, easily overlooked.

Best regards to all,
            &n= bsp;            =  Philip           &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;     

on 5/12/04 9:43 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote:<= BR>
In answer to Ruth Wisse:
I feel that this book belongs in the Jewish canon.

To classify the character K as Jewish may be separate and distinct from con= sidering him as a symbol for Jewish and Jewish values...

Barbara S. Cohen

----- Original Message -----
From: ruth wisse <mailto:wisse@fas.harvard.edu>  
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:25 AM
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial

The discussion has become very absorbing. Here is a book that not only allo= ws for interpretation, but demands it. This may also be why so many people l= ook for biographical approaches to the book: we try to fill in all that Kafk= a has left out. We may want to humanize K. as a way of helping him out of hi= s condition.

Readers will obviously decide for themselves whether they think this book b= elongs in the Jewish canon.... He has no such knowledge. He starts out think= ing that he is self-sufficient, that the apple of reason is enough for a mod= ern man, but then discovers that he needs guidance after all. As his search = escalates, he seeks the ultimate assurance that used to come in the house of= God, but since he is even less than a tourist, the place mocks him rather t= han giving him any sense of security.  



--MS_Mac_OE_3167231146_2227110_MIME_Part-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 03:31:31 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:31:31 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial References: Message-ID: <000901c43892$66c47bf0$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43857.BA529120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial In response to Phillip: the book strikes me as one long dream: My first reaction to this book was that it read like a dream: I could = invision some players as if they were created out of a scene from Alice = and Wonderland, with the attics, basements, unusual celings, the = floggers. The more I thought about that as the theme, it seemed to be = too "easy an explanation, on the one hand, and too complex, on the = other. Perhaps, Kafka is like the last great Rabbi, or some type of = mystical kabbalistic prophet, and the book can be understood from three = perspectives: 1. the human mind. 2. the burarcracy and the facelessness of the individual in society. 3. a dream sequence. I cannot forget the words in the book, "trials like this are lost form = the start" (p.94) or "the trial is already underway."(p.93), or "the = thought of his trial never left him" (p.110) or "the proceedings are not = public, but can be made public if the court (who is judging??) considers = it necessary (p. 112) and wonder how this can be signficant to any of = the three perspectives I mention above. We are victims of our own mind, = society, and can become so in our dreams as well.=20 There are so many possible ways to understand and take apart this = book, which, in my opinion, makes it one of the true masterpieces of the = 20th Century. I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, Phillip, which of course is me = projecting my own spin on this story, but on this initial reading, I did = not see K as such. This book will definitely be read again by me. All best, Barbara S. Cohen ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43857.BA529120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial
 
In response to Phillip: the book = strikes me as=20 one long dream:
 
My first reaction to this book was = that it read=20 like a dream: I could invision some players as if they were created = out of a=20 scene from Alice and Wonderland, with the attics, basements, = unusual=20 celings, the floggers. The more I thought about that as the theme, it = seemed=20 to be too "easy an explanation, on the one hand, and too complex, on = the=20 other. Perhaps, Kafka is like the last great Rabbi, or some type of = mystical=20 kabbalistic prophet, and the book can be understood from three=20 perspectives:
 
1. the human mind.
 
2. the burarcracy and the = facelessness of the=20 individual in society.
 
3. a dream sequence.
 
I cannot forget the words in the = book, "trials=20 like this are lost form the start" (p.94) or "the trial is already=20 underway."(p.93), or "the thought of his trial never left him" (p.110) = or "the=20 proceedings are not public, but can be made public if the court = (who is=20 judging??) considers it necessary (p. 112)  and wonder how = this can=20 be signficant to any of the three perspectives I mention above. We are = victims=20 of our own mind, society, and can become so in our dreams as well.=20
 
There are so many possible ways to = understand and=20 take apart this book, which, in my opinion, makes it one of the true=20 masterpieces of the 20th Century.
 
I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, = Phillip, which=20 of course is me projecting my own spin on this story, but on this = initial=20 reading, I did not see K as such. This book will definitely be read = again by=20 me.
 
All best,
Barbara S.=20 Cohen
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C43857.BA529120-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 05:50:35 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 14:50:35 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial References: <000901c43892$66c47bf0$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: <010e01c438a5$e0b42c40$24011ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C438F9.A62E4980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The TrialI WANT to believe that K is a Jew, Phillip, = which of course is me projecting my own spin on this story, but on this = initial reading, I did not see K as such. This book will definitely be = read again by me. All best, Barbara S. Cohen Dear Barbara, Why do you want to believe that K. is a Jew? David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C438F9.A62E4980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial
I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, = Phillip, which=20 of course is me projecting my own spin on this story, but on this = initial=20 reading, I did not see K as such. This book will definitely be read = again by=20 me.
 
All best,
Barbara S. Cohen
 
Dear Barbara,
 
Why do you want to believe that K. is a = Jew?

David Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C438F9.A62E4980-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 10:40:20 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barry) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 10:40:20 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] the Trial Message-ID: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2C5@SERVER1> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C438CE.4E82F440 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C438CE.4E82F440" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C438CE.4E82F440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I find this a fascinating discussion. To respond to Ruth's challenge of considering whether Kafka belongs within the Jewish canon, we must ask the fundamental question of what does define Jewish culture and so we are drawn in to the larger question of "what is a Jew" . As we each have different answers to that question, so we each respond differently to this examination of the Trial. I detect no essential "Jewishness" in the Trial. The themes are universal. It is only because they are universal that they are part of Jewish themes too. (like the man who asked if he ate kosher answered "yes of course, I also eat kosher"?) The feelings of persecution, alienation and of being the outsider may be in the Jewish condition, but they are not exclusively ours. (Could Albert Camus' "Outsider" be a Jewish book written by an atheist?). You need only speak to an asylum seeker from one of many African and Asian countries (a major issue in Europe and certainly in the UK right now) to question whether we can suggest that the feelings of being an outsider group within a host community are values that exclusively define us, (or even those of us from central European or Sephardi heritage). Is there any nation or group that would today claim "We are the masters now"? I think not. I suggest that the comment that "we feel impotent, as K does, in some situations, but unlike K, as Jews, our feelings do not lead us to resignation, to hopelessness...we stand up and fight, take action in most situations. K resigned himself, to some extent, to being a victim of his own mind. " could not have been written at any time after say Bar Kochba until the very middle of the twentieth century. I suspect that it is not a sentiment that even Kafka's Jewish contemporaries would recognise (despite the astonishing independence enjoyed by the Jewish community in Prague, with for example its own Town Hall in the centre of the City). Interestingly although much of our Shalom Aleichem discussion recalled stage and film versions of the Tevye stories, no one has yet referred to the film version of the Trial. I saw it many years ago but it was faithful to the book in the way it conveyed the dreamlike quality. I find that my reading of the book today is influenced by the experience of that film. Barry Abrahamson ------_=_NextPart_001_01C438CE.4E82F440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I find this a fascinating discussion.  To respond to Ruth’s = challenge of considering whether Kafka belongs within the Jewish canon, we must ask = the fundamental question of what does define Jewish culture and so we are = drawn in to the larger question of “what is a Jew” .  As we each have different answers to that question, = so we each respond differently to this examination of the Trial. 

I detect no essential “Jewishness” in = the Trial.  The themes are = universal.  It is only because they are = universal that they are part of Jewish themes too.  (like the man who asked if he ate kosher answered “yes of = course, I also eat kosher”?)

The feelings of persecution, alienation and of being = the outsider may be in the Jewish condition, but they are not exclusively ours.  (Could Albert = Camus’ “Outsider” be a Jewish book written by an atheist?).  You need only speak to an asylum seeker from one of = many African and  Asian = countries  (a major issue in Europe and = certainly in the UK right now) to question whether we can suggest that the = feelings of being an outsider group within a host community are values that = exclusively define us, (or even those of us from central European or Sephardi = heritage). Is there any nation or group that would today claim “We are the = masters now”?  I think = not.

I suggest that the comment that “we feel impotent, as K does, in some situations, but unlike K, = as Jews, our feelings do not lead us to resignation, to hopelessness...we stand = up and fight, take action in most situations.  K resigned himself, to some extent, to being a victim of his own = mind. “ could not have been written at any time after say Bar Kochba = until the very middle of the twentieth century.  I suspect that it is not a sentiment that even Kafka’s Jewish = contemporaries would recognise (despite the astonishing independence enjoyed by the = Jewish community in Prague, with for example its own Town Hall in the centre = of the City).

Interestingly although much of our Shalom Aleichem discussion recalled stage and film versions of the Tevye stories, no = one has yet referred to the film version of the Trial.  I  saw = it many years ago but it was faithful to the book in the way it conveyed the = dreamlike quality.  I find that my = reading of the book today is influenced by the experience of that film. =

Barry Abrahamson

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C438CE.4E82F440-- ------_=_NextPart_000_01C438CE.4E82F440 Content-Type: text/html; name="header.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="header.htm" Content-ID:

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------_=_NextPart_000_01C438CE.4E82F440-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 10:51:16 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 02:51:16 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] A pious hope In-Reply-To: <000901c43892$66c47bf0$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3167261476_428805_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 5/12/04 7:31 PM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: There are so many possible ways to understand and take apart this book, which, in my opinion, makes it one of the true masterpieces of the 20th Century. Thanks for your comments, Barbara, with which I fully agree. The story exists at many levels of meaning, all with their own validity. The quotes you give can be understood at all the levels you mention. For example, at the intrapsychic level, "trials like this are lost from the start" may reflect K's feeling that he will now and always be unable to face his inner problem, (that he is blocked/arrested in his development as a person) as accused by his conscience, i.e. that he is unable to grow and change. In my comments, I have emphasized the deeper, intrapsychic level of meaning, not because I think it is the only one, but because in my perception it tends to be neglected. Perhaps more than neglected, perhaps actively resisted. Perhaps. Just as K. resists the insights offered by others, with all his evasions and intellectualizations, so too does the reader resist those insights. Kafka "weaves his spell" so effectively that K.'s defensiveness becomes the reader's defensiveness. Perhaps it even reflects Kafka's own defensiveness, as there seem to be clear parallels between Kafka and K. in many ways, as previously noted. I make this suggestion in the pious hope that no reader will be offended by my saying this. Kafka is not around to be offended. Best regards, Philip In response to Phillip: the book strikes me as one long dream: My first reaction to this book was that it read like a dream: I could invision some players as if they were created out of a scene from Alice and Wonderland, with the attics, basements, unusual celings, the floggers. The more I thought about that as the theme, it seemed to be too "easy an explanation, on the one hand, and too complex, on the other. Perhaps, Kafka is like the last great Rabbi, or some type of mystical kabbalistic prophet, and the book can be understood from three perspectives: 1. the human mind. 2. the burarcracy and the facelessness of the individual in society. 3. a dream sequence. I cannot forget the words in the book, "trials like this are lost form the start" (p.94) or "the trial is already underway."(p.93), or "the thought of his trial never left him" (p.110) or "the proceedings are not public, but can be made public if the court (who is judging??) considers it necessary (p. 112) and wonder how this can be signficant to any of the three perspectives I mention above. We are victims of our own mind, society, and can become so in our dreams as well. There are so many possible ways to understand and take apart this book, which, in my opinion, makes it one of the true masterpieces of the 20th Century. I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, Phillip, which of course is me projecting my own spin on this story, but on this initial reading, I did not see K as such. This book will definitely be read again by me. All best, Barbara S. Cohen --MS_Mac_OE_3167261476_428805_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable A pious hope on 5/12/04 7:31 PM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote:<= BR>
There are so many possible ways to understand and take apart this book, whi= ch, in my opinion, makes it one of the true masterpieces of the 20th Century= .

Thanks for your comments,  Barbara, with which I fully agree. The stor= y exists at many levels of meaning, all with their own validity. The quotes = you give can be understood at all the levels you mention.  For example,=  at the intrapsychic level,  "trials like this are lost from= the start"  may  reflect K's feeling that he will now and al= ways be unable to face his inner problem, (that he is blocked/arrested in hi= s development as a person) as accused by his conscience, i.e. that he is una= ble to grow and change.  In my comments, I have emphasized the deeper, = intrapsychic level of meaning, not because I think it is the only one, but b= ecause in my perception it tends to be neglected. Perhaps more than neglecte= d, perhaps actively  resisted. Perhaps. Just as K. resists the insights= offered by others,  with all his evasions and intellectualizations, &n= bsp;so too does the reader resist those insights. Kafka "weaves his spe= ll" so effectively that K.'s defensiveness becomes the reader's defensi= veness.  Perhaps it even reflects Kafka's own defensiveness, as there s= eem to be clear parallels between Kafka and K. in many ways, as previously n= oted.         I make this suggestion= in the pious hope that no reader will be offended by my saying this. Kafka = is not around to be offended.
Best regards,
            &n= bsp;   Philip         = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;       

In response to Phillip: the book strikes = me as one long dream:
My first reaction to this book was that i= t read like a dream: I could invision some players as if they were created o= ut of a scene from Alice and Wonderland, with the attics, basements, = unusual celings, the floggers. The more I thought about that as the theme, i= t seemed to be too "easy an explanation, on the one hand, and too compl= ex, on the other. Perhaps, Kafka is like the last great Rabbi, or some type = of mystical kabbalistic prophet, and the book can be understood from three p= erspectives:
1. the human mind.
2. the burarcracy and the facelessness of= the individual in society.
3. a dream sequence.
I cannot forget the words in the book, &q= uot;trials like this are lost form the start" (p.94) or "the trial= is already underway."(p.93), or "the thought of his trial never l= eft him" (p.110) or "the proceedings are not public, but can be ma= de public if the court (who is judging??) considers it necessary (p. 112) &n= bsp;and wonder how this can be signficant to any of the three perspectives I= mention above. We are victims of our own mind, society, and can become so i= n our dreams as well.

There are so many possible ways to unders= tand and take apart this book, which, in my opinion, makes it one of the tru= e masterpieces of the 20th Century.
I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, Philli= p, which of course is me projecting my own spin on this story, but on this i= nitial reading, I did not see K as such. This book will definitely be read a= gain by me.
All best,
Barbara S. Cohen


--MS_Mac_OE_3167261476_428805_MIME_Part-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 16:13:53 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:13:53 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial References: <000901c43892$66c47bf0$6c02a8c0@isaac> <010e01c438a5$e0b42c40$24011ad3@dmfw0001> Message-ID: <000b01c438fc$e7758810$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C438C2.3B039D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The TrialAh...David: you ask the one question that = is the most difficult to answer~ I suppose the obvious answer would be so that I can identify with his = experiences as perceives them, and ultimately understand them.=20 It would be comforting, if after all, underneath all of the struggle, = complexity, and bewilderment of this character K, he, like us, can say = the Shema, keep the Sabbath holy, and be committed to the continued = existence of Israel.=20 Your question has made me think. I thank you for it. Barbara=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David FISHER=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, Phillip, which of course is me = projecting my own spin on this story, but on this initial reading, I did = not see K as such. This book will definitely be read again by me. All best, Barbara S. Cohen Dear Barbara, Why do you want to believe that K. is a Jew? David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C438C2.3B039D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial
Ah...David: you ask the one question = that is the=20 most difficult to answer~
 
I suppose the obvious answer would be = so that I can=20 identify with his experiences as perceives them, and ultimately = understand them.=20
It would be comforting, if after all, = underneath=20 all of the struggle, complexity, and bewilderment of this character = K, he,=20 like us, can say the Shema, keep the Sabbath holy, and be committed to = the=20 continued existence of Israel.
 
Your question has made me think. I = thank you for=20 it.
 
Barbara
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David FISHER
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 = 9:50=20 PM
Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] = The=20 Trial

I WANT to believe that K is a Jew, = Phillip, which=20 of course is me projecting my own spin on this story, but on this = initial=20 reading, I did not see K as such. This book will definitely be read = again by=20 me.
 
All best,
Barbara S. Cohen
 
Dear Barbara,
 
Why do you want to believe that K. is = a=20 Jew?

David Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C438C2.3B039D40-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 20:15:45 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] K becomes Jewish? Message-ID: <8353791.1084475746889.JavaMail.root@wamui03.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial

Oh I like that...
 
Alas, if K were to suddenly become shomer shabbos, or even recite the sh'ma once before sleeping, the character would become a very different man.  And this seems to me to point to K's largest difficulty, at least psychologically and even socially: he ultimately has no place to stand, no place to be truly, centrally meaningfully, K.
 
His mainstays of logic and reason are ineffectual compass within the murky labyrinths of the Law, and his "real" life in business is superficial and brittle, with his mutually manipulative relationships easily splintered by wrong comments or lapses in attention.  Despite his success at the bank, he has little real self-investment (small financial pun) there, except that the position is both means and proof of his superiority.  And what a shock it is to his tidy bank-world when the whipper appears there, shattering any illusion of haven.
 
He peers out his office window for increasing periods of time, perhaps psychologically seeking a way out, but I think more, seeking a place to stand as an authentic K.  What he's based his life on, the power of reason and the trustworthiness of social order, has failed him, and he has no place from which to speak as K.  Moreover, he is too proud to either flee to the Jewish tradition he's rejected or even laugh at himself and thereby gain perspective like our "simple" Tevye.
A devout Humanist in a foxhole prays but only to himself, knows it, and finds solace only in the fact that he's self-definedly right.
 
What seems most Jewish about The Trial seems to me to be its reflection of what was often lost to Jews in their enlightenment and emancipation.  In the end, K knows he has fallen on his own sword, though the blade is wielded by another.  He is indeed guilty, but of what he knows not, for hasn't he been right?  In his last gestures he seeks to grasp something beyond himself, intuiting and perhaps even sensing its existence.
 
Yes it's important, even vital to include The Trial in the Jewish canon. For me it describes, at least at this reading, the limits of rationality and how unbearable life can be when its "how" is eroded, and its "why" never found.  Imagine a self-acknowledged Jew without recourse to the "why", to life's many varied meanings..... impossible!
 
Elie Aharon
...who admits to being hopelessly biased as a Jewish theologian in a businessman's body :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: "Barbara S. Cohen"
Sent: May 13, 2004 11:13 AM
It would be comforting, if after all, underneath all of the struggle, complexity, and bewilderment of this character K, he, like us, can say the Shema, keep the Sabbath holy, and be committed to the continued existence of Israel.
 
Your question has made me think. I thank you for it.
 
Barbara
 

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 13 21:28:41 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:28:41 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] [Fwd: The Trial] Message-ID: <40A3DA79.4020609@xs4all.nl> --------------090808080202000501000600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -------- Original Message -------- Subject: The Trial Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:22:34 -0400 From: Manja Ressler To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.orgrg Barry wrote: The feelings of persecution, alienation and of being the outsider may be in the Jewish condition, but they are not exclusively ours. (Could Albert Camus' "Outsider" be a Jewish book written by an atheist?). You need only speak to an asylum seeker from one of many African and Asian countries (a major issue in Europe and certainly in the UK right now) to question whether we can suggest that the feelings of being an outsider group within a host community are values that exclusively define us, (or even those of us from central European or Sephardi heritage). I totally agree with you. In The Netherlands, where I live when I am not in New York, xenophobia and exclusion of refugees and immigrants are rampant. But, and I think this is important, in Kafka's days Jews were the only non-European (as opposed to just religious or national) minority in Europe. In that sense you can say that our experience (unfortunately) is a kind of template for the experiences of 'new' minorities now, in contemporary Europe. Another difference is the period over which Jews have experienced the 'outsider' status. Which is, as far as I am concerned, not all bad. I think it was György Konrád who wrote about the unique perspective outsiders have on the societies that they are (not) part of. I believe that Kafka was in many ways an outsider. As a Jew, but also as a person, someone who doesn't really feel at home in this world. Not at home in the world of bureaucracy in which he worked, not at home in Judaism (he hated his parents' version of Judaism), not at home in the gentile world, probably not even at home in his own very being. Is there any nation or group that would today claim "We are the masters now"? I think not. ??? What do you mean? Manja Ressler I am a free-lance journalist and writer. I live in New York and Amsterdam, The Netherlands. I think I attended the 1991 Nahum Goldman Seminar. --------------090808080202000501000600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: The Trial
Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 16:22:34 -0400
From: Manja Ressler <manja@xs4all.nl>
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.orgrg


Barry wrote:
The feelings of persecution, alienation and of being the outsider may be in the Jewish condition, but they are not exclusively ours.  (Could Albert Camus’ “Outsider” be a Jewish book written by an atheist?).  You need only speak to an asylum seeker from one of many African and  Asian countries  (a major issue in Europe and certainly in the UK right now) to question whether we can suggest that the feelings of being an outsider group within a host community are values that exclusively define us, (or even those of us from central European or Sephardi heritage).

I totally agree with you. In The Netherlands, where I live when I am not in New York, xenophobia and exclusion of refugees and immigrants are rampant. But, and I think this is important, in Kafka's days Jews were the only non-European (as opposed to just religious or national) minority in Europe. In that sense you can say that our experience (unfortunately) is a kind of template for the experiences of 'new' minorities now, in contemporary Europe. Another difference is the period over which Jews have experienced the 'outsider' status. Which is, as far as I am concerned, not all bad. I think it was György Konrád who wrote about the unique perspective outsiders have on the societies that they are (not) part of. I believe that Kafka was in many ways an outsider. As a Jew, but also as a person, someone who doesn't really feel at home in this world. Not at home in the world of bureaucracy in which he worked, not at home in Judaism (he hated his parents' version of Judaism), not at home in the gentile world, probably not even at home in his own very being.

 Is there any nation or group that would today claim “We are the masters now”?  I think not.

??? What do you mean?
Manja Ressler
I am a free-lance journalist and writer. I live in New York and Amsterdam, The Netherlands. I think I attended the 1991 Nahum Goldman Seminar.
 --------------090808080202000501000600-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 14 00:05:29 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 09:05:29 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial References: <000901c43892$66c47bf0$6c02a8c0@isaac> <010e01c438a5$e0b42c40$24011ad3@dmfw0001> <000b01c438fc$e7758810$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: <001401c4393e$ee637eb0$d0021ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C43992.9A793660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The TrialAh...David: you ask the one question that = is the most difficult to answer~ I suppose the obvious answer would be so that I can identify with his = experiences as perceives them, and ultimately understand them.=20 It would be comforting, if after all, underneath all of the struggle, = complexity, and bewilderment of this character K, he, like us, can say = the Shema, keep the Sabbath holy, and be committed to the continued = existence of Israel.=20 Your question has made me think. I thank you for it. Barbara Dear Barbara, I should like K to be anything. Not only does he not have an ethnic or = religious identification he seems a cipher. He eats, fills a function at = the bank, sleeps and has occasionally satisfied sexual urges. There is = no evidence of family or ethnic connections, no intellectual curiosity, = no evidence of interest in art, nature or science, no evidence of wit or = humour and no evidence of any close connection with any other human = being. He is a beast with a human IQ. It is clear that he will not get a = satisfactory answer if he asks what he is charged with, but he doesn't = even ask. He is unfamiliar with the points of interest in his own town = and has to do some hurried cramming when he is asked to take the Italian = visitor around. Kafka also makes the same point in K's contact with the = artist Titorelli. Being a Jew is only one of our identities although it is an important = one. If K had the label, Jew, I would identify with him no more than I = do now. I identify with him as I am a somewhat rootless human being = farblundjet in Queensland. His execution ends what I find a meaningless existence. I am reading Hardy's 'Jude the Obscure.' Jude seems a real person. Jude = Fawley is not a Jew, but he has an intellectual curiosity, a desire for = knowlege and a desire to be close to other huan beings. As far as K being committed to the continued existence of Israel Kafka = and we assume his fictional creation, K, died before there was a State = of Israel. K is definitely not committed to the continued existence of = the State of Israel. I hope the people of Israel will continue to exist = for a long while, but it is fair to expect that the nation-state of = Israel will suffer the fate of other nation states. The great majority = of the 192 nations listed in my atlas have either come into being or = have changed their form of government during the twentieth century. Both = the Czarist Empire and the USSR disappeared. China changed from a = dynastic state to a quasifascist state to a Marxist state. Nations have = an ephemeral existence in history, and it is unlikely that the state of = Israel will be different. David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C43992.9A793660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] The Trial
Ah...David: you ask the one question = that is the=20 most difficult to answer~
 
I suppose the obvious answer would be = so that I can=20 identify with his experiences as perceives them, and ultimately = understand them.=20
 
It would be comforting, if after all, = underneath=20 all of the struggle, complexity, and bewilderment of this character = K, he,=20 like us, can say the Shema, keep the Sabbath holy, and be committed to = the=20 continued existence of Israel.
 
Your question has made me think. I = thank you for=20 it.
 
Barbara
 
Dear Barbara,
 
I should like K to be anything. Not = only does he=20 not have an ethnic or religious identification he seems a cipher. He = eats, fills=20 a function at the bank, sleeps and has occasionally satisfied sexual = urges.=20 There is no evidence of family or ethnic connections, no intellectual = curiosity,=20 no evidence of interest in art, nature or science, no evidence of wit or = humour and no evidence of any close connection with any other human = being.=20 He is a beast with a human IQ. It is clear that he will not get a = satisfactory=20 answer if he asks what he is charged with, but he doesn't even ask. He = is=20 unfamiliar with the points of interest in his own town and has to do = some=20 hurried cramming when he is asked to take the Italian visitor around. = Kafka also=20 makes the same point in K's contact with the artist = Titorelli.
 
Being a Jew is only one of our = identities although=20 it is an important one. If K had the label, Jew, I would identify with = him no=20 more than I do now. I identify with him as I am a somewhat rootless = human being=20 farblundjet in Queensland.
 
His execution ends what I find a = meaningless=20 existence.
 
I am reading Hardy's 'Jude the = Obscure.' Jude seems=20 a real person. Jude Fawley is not a Jew, but he has an intellectual = curiosity, a desire for knowlege and a desire to be close to other huan=20 beings.
 
As far as K being committed to the = continued=20 existence of Israel Kafka and we assume his fictional creation, K, died = before=20 there was a State of Israel. K is definitely not committed to the = continued=20 existence of the State of Israel. I hope the people of Israel will = continue to=20 exist for a long while, but it is fair to expect that the nation-state = of Israel=20 will suffer the fate of other nation states. The = great majority of=20 the 192 nations listed in my atlas have either come into being or = have=20 changed their form of government during the twentieth century. Both = the=20 Czarist Empire and the USSR disappeared. China changed from a dynastic = state to=20 a quasifascist state to a Marxist state. Nations have an ephemeral=20 existence in history, and it is unlikely that the state of Israel will = be=20 different.
 
David Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C43992.9A793660-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 14 04:52:36 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Heidi Meyerson) Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] kafka epitomises failure In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040512043941.00bc5578@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20040514035236.98992.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com> --0-864546290-1084506756=:98865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Trying to define what is Jewish literature or what is Jewish art, proves impossible to answer because the wrong questions are being asked. These days, (and for good reason), we are disinclined to accept limiting definitions of ourselves individually or of our collective Jewish people and anyway its a waste of energy! For me it is enough to accept that a story written by a Jewish author makes it Jewish. We are entitled. A more interesting question though, is to ask how Kafka contributes to our understanding of ourselves (either as Jews or not)? His descriptions of irrational forces, bureacratic insanity, inescapable predicaments, ushered in a modernist literary perspective (even if his originality precluded its emulation). Realism juxtaposed with surrealism. Though Kafka's work defies interpretation, his approach forces many readers, perhaps for the first time, to confront the malignant forces of power and deception, also self-deception, within which we live (or lived) with less self-awareness than even K.! (And more worrisome - is our unconscious acceptance that this is the nature of things (as opposed to a Karmic acceptance!) - so aptly illustrated by the character K.) I have delighted in reading the differing responses to Kafka - except for the so-called "psychic explanation" feeding on the author's own supposed devlopmental-arrest, which I find patronising. And interpreting The Trial as a dream or nightmare, misses the point - worse, it is dismissive. It has dream-like sequences, nightmarish, yes - but this flow can be true of one's own existence (I often awake and am not sure if i now begin a dream or have just left one) - or think of the brutal reality of unexpected bad news - these things we wish to wake from, but cannot. Far from it "being a dream", Kafka shows how reality can be at times. "To do justice to a figure like Kafka in its purity and its peculiar beauty, one must never lose sight of one thing: it is the purity and beauty of a failure... One is tempted to say: once he was certain of eventual failure, everything worked out for him en route as in a dream." - Walter Benjamin. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' --0-864546290-1084506756=:98865 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Trying to define what is Jewish literature or what is Jewish art, proves impossible to answer because the wrong questions are being asked.  These days, (and for good reason), we are disinclined to accept limiting definitions of ourselves individually or of our collective Jewish people and anyway its a waste of energy!  For me it is enough to accept that a story written by a Jewish author makes it Jewish.  We are entitled.
 
A more interesting question though, is to ask how Kafka contributes to our understanding of ourselves (either as Jews or not)?  His descriptions of irrational forces, bureacratic insanity, inescapable predicaments, ushered in a modernist literary perspective (even if his originality precluded its emulation).  Realism juxtaposed with surrealism. 
Though Kafka's work defies interpretation, his approach forces many readers, perhaps for the first time, to confront the malignant forces of power and deception, also self-deception, within which we live (or lived) with less self-awareness than even K.!  (And more worrisome - is our unconscious acceptance that this is the nature of things (as opposed to a Karmic acceptance!) - so aptly illustrated by the character K.)
 
I have delighted in reading the differing responses to Kafka - except for the so-called  "psychic explanation" feeding on the author's own supposed devlopmental-arrest, which I find patronising.  And interpreting The Trial as a dream or nightmare, misses the point - worse, it is dismissive.   It has dream-like sequences, nightmarish, yes - but this flow can be true of one's own existence (I often awake and am not sure if i now begin a dream or have just left one) - or think of the brutal reality of unexpected bad news - these things we wish to wake from, but cannot.  Far from it "being a dream", Kafka shows how reality can be at times.
 
"To do justice to a figure like Kafka in its purity and its peculiar beauty, one must never lose sight of one thing:  it is the purity and beauty of a failure... One is tempted to say: once he was certain of eventual failure, everything worked out for him en route as in a dream." - Walter Benjamin.
 

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' --0-864546290-1084506756=:98865-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 14 08:31:01 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 00:31:01 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] "in the end" In-Reply-To: <8353791.1084475746889.JavaMail.root@wamui03.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Message-ID: on 5/13/04 12:15 PM, Elie Aharon at elie5764@peoplepc.com wrote: In the end, K knows he has fallen on his own sword, though the blade is wielded by another. He is indeed guilty, but of what he knows not, for hasn't he been right? In his last gestures he seeks to grasp something beyond himself, intuiting and perhaps even sensing its existence. Yes, as David Fisher says, "His execution ends what I find a meaningless existence." I find that too, and as dreams often do, the novel ends in something frightening, something violent, a nightmare. But I agree, Elie, that in the end, "in his last gestures" something new happens, as described on page 228: K. thinks, "I've always wanted to seize the world with twenty hands, and what's more with a motive that was hardly laudable. That was wrong; do I want to show now that even a yearlong trial could teach me nothing?...It's been left to me to say myself what needs to be said". Facing death, K. finally does gain some insight into what he is guilty of, what he has been accusing himself of, i.e. of his mean and greedy way of life. And that insight had to come from inside himself, not from others. I= t is not unusual for people facing death to see their life more clearly than before. Think of the insight of Tolstoy's dying Ivan Ilyich who says, "mayb= e I did not live as I ought to have done". Or of Meursault, the anti-hero of Camus' "L'=E9tranger", on trial for a senseless murder, who near the end gains a kind of tenuous insight into his psychic numbness and senses the dim possibility of something positive in life. One of Hemingway's characters, dying, says, "I was learning fast at the end." Even chronically psychotic people have been known to gain some final lucidity on their deathbeds. and at the bottom of page 230: "Who was it? A friend? A good person? Someone who cared? Someone who wante= d to help?..." Finally, K. comes "to say myself what needs to be said" and to ask the meaningful questions that need to be asked. Finally, he intuits "something beyond himself", as you put it, some sense of genuine relatedness, of friendship, of caring. Yes, he has finally learned something after a "yearlong trial" but sadly, it is too late. Heidi - I am sorry you were offended by my comments, though I am not surprised. Call them patronising and dismissive if you like, but that's how I see it. You say: 'Far from it "being a dream", Kafka shows how reality ca= n be at times.' You imply here an either/or dichotomy between dream and reality. To this I would point out that a dream can sometimes tell us more about reality than waking life, more about what we would otherwise be unaware of in real life. It can help to overcome the "self-deception" of which you speak. My own dreams have taught me a great deal about my reality - one dream in particular had a dramatic effect in changing my whole life and I know others who have had similar experiences. Let's not be too "dismissive" of dreams and the intrapsychic life, as suggested by your epithets "so-called" and "supposed". Jews in particular have placed a high value on the understanding of dreams and the inner emotional life. And let me say again that I am not dismissive of other interpretations which are just as valid as the psychological one; the story has many levels of meaning, and this is part of its brilliance. I respect the opinions of others and hope for the same respect for my own. As to being "patronising" toward Kafka: I think it is more respectful to see him as he was, rather than to engage in hero-worshiping. This is not to deny his greatness as a writer. Thanks to all for stimulating my thinking. Best regards, Philip =20 From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 14 16:59:56 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:59:56 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] "in the end" References: Message-ID: <000701c439cc$80604180$6c02a8c0@isaac> In the end, something new happens as both Elie and Philip point out: Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts. As Philip notes, to call another's comments "patronizing" or "dismissive" is unnecessary. Additionally, it is not very "Jewish" as one of the very beautiful symbols of our tradition teaches us to ask questions, to have differences of opinions with others to stimulate our own perception and not negate those of others. My thinking too has been extended and I thank you all for this opportunity. Shabbath Shalom. Barbara Cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Shulman" To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 12:31 AM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] "in the end" on 5/13/04 12:15 PM, Elie Aharon at elie5764@peoplepc.com wrote: In the end, K knows he has fallen on his own sword, though the blade is wielded by another. He is indeed guilty, but of what he knows not, for hasn't he been right? In his last gestures he seeks to grasp something beyond himself, intuiting and perhaps even sensing its existence. Yes, as David Fisher says, "His execution ends what I find a meaningless existence." I find that too, and as dreams often do, the novel ends in something frightening, something violent, a nightmare. But I agree, Elie, that in the end, "in his last gestures" something new happens, as described on page 228: K. thinks, "I've always wanted to seize the world with twenty hands, and what's more with a motive that was hardly laudable. That was wrong; do I want to show now that even a yearlong trial could teach me nothing?...It's been left to me to say myself what needs to be said". Facing death, K. finally does gain some insight into what he is guilty of, what he has been accusing himself of, i.e. of his mean and greedy way of life. And that insight had to come from inside himself, not from others. It is not unusual for people facing death to see their life more clearly than before. Think of the insight of Tolstoy's dying Ivan Ilyich who says, "maybe I did not live as I ought to have done". Or of Meursault, the anti-hero of Camus' "L'étranger", on trial for a senseless murder, who near the end gains a kind of tenuous insight into his psychic numbness and senses the dim possibility of something positive in life. One of Hemingway's characters, dying, says, "I was learning fast at the end." Even chronically psychotic people have been known to gain some final lucidity on their deathbeds. and at the bottom of page 230: "Who was it? A friend? A good person? Someone who cared? Someone who wanted to help?..." Finally, K. comes "to say myself what needs to be said" and to ask the meaningful questions that need to be asked. Finally, he intuits "something beyond himself", as you put it, some sense of genuine relatedness, of friendship, of caring. Yes, he has finally learned something after a "yearlong trial" but sadly, it is too late. Heidi - I am sorry you were offended by my comments, though I am not surprised. Call them patronising and dismissive if you like, but that's how I see it. You say: 'Far from it "being a dream", Kafka shows how reality can be at times.' You imply here an either/or dichotomy between dream and reality. To this I would point out that a dream can sometimes tell us more about reality than waking life, more about what we would otherwise be unaware of in real life. It can help to overcome the "self-deception" of which you speak. My own dreams have taught me a great deal about my reality - one dream in particular had a dramatic effect in changing my whole life and I know others who have had similar experiences. Let's not be too "dismissive" of dreams and the intrapsychic life, as suggested by your epithets "so-called" and "supposed". Jews in particular have placed a high value on the understanding of dreams and the inner emotional life. And let me say again that I am not dismissive of other interpretations which are just as valid as the psychological one; the story has many levels of meaning, and this is part of its brilliance. I respect the opinions of others and hope for the same respect for my own. As to being "patronising" toward Kafka: I think it is more respectful to see him as he was, rather than to engage in hero-worshiping. This is not to deny his greatness as a writer. Thanks to all for stimulating my thinking. Best regards, Philip ________________________________________________ NGFP-BookClub mailing list NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub Nahum Goldmann Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ Jewish Heritage Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/ Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/ From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 14 19:17:01 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:17:01 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Reaching out - Choosing life In-Reply-To: <000701c439cc$80604180$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: "Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts." Thank you, Barbara, for your emotional suppport, and for the brilliant idea expressed above. I never thought of it that way before. Of course you are right: in dream language, birth and death can be understood symbolically as well as literally. Sometimes people dream of giving birth to their new self. Or sometimes of dying in order to be reborn as a new and different person - one can see that not just in Christian theology ("born-again Christians") but elsewhere. Perhaps K.'s death is, as you suggest, an "emotional death". And perhaps it is also a kind of acknowledgement that he has really been emotionally dead all along and now he is realizing it. Perhaps it is his old self that dies. Your interpretation is supported by his dim vision of a new way of living, of friendship, of caring, of helping, of people reaching out their arms to each other. I recently saw the fine Italian film "I'm not scared" which I strongly recommend - in this film, about two ten-year-old boys, one of them undergoes a sort of symbolic/literal descent into the underground, and is helped out, indeed his life is saved, at the risk of his own life, by the caring of the other boy. In a sense, both boys are reborn. At the end of the film, there is a beautiful scene in which the two boys reach out their arms to each other (as at the end of The Trial) leaving not a dry eye in the house, at least not mine. As Kafka says at the end, "logic is no doubt unshakable, but it can't withstand a person who wants to live." (Page 231). Perhaps we must affirm that K., like Tevye, does indeed go on living, despite everything. As the Jewish people go on living, despite everything. "Therefore choose life." Let us not be scared. Thank you again, Barbara, and everyone, for reaching out, for the privilege of bouncing ideas off each other. I am learning a lot. Shabbat Shalom. Kol Tuv. Philip on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: In the end, something new happens as both Elie and Philip point out: Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts. As Philip notes, to call another's comments "patronizing" or "dismissive" is unnecessary. Additionally, it is not very "Jewish" as one of the very beautiful symbols of our tradition teaches us to ask questions, to have differences of opinions with others to stimulate our own perception and not negate those of others. My thinking too has been extended and I thank you all for this opportunity. Shabbath Shalom. Barbara Cohen From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 16 12:09:00 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Heidi Meyerson) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 04:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] “A novel is a work of art, not an explanation” In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040516110900.70642.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> --0-857164729-1084705740=:70396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Let us at least recognise what is being done here with all these theories - post-Freudian, Psycho-analytical, Theological, symbolic, etc. Each tries desperately to infuse the life and death of K. with meaning – to give the character some purpose, some humanity. Seeing The Trial as a dream, is yet another attempt (albeit a more sophisticated one) to inject a rational or “understandable” approach to the story, rather than to accept that things in the book remain in a state of tension, unresolved. If it is all a dream – Ah! Then we can accept that the servants are flogged twice as if on a looped film because this happens in a dream. The bizaare becomes explainable and K.’s dilemma becomes acceptable. Precisely why I reject such a neat explanation. As I said before – dream-like yes, nightmarish yes, but I think it gives the writer his due to say that it is also realistic-like (Kafka paid acute attention to accurately portraying anxiety / panic disorder – c/f K.’s entering & exiting the law courts). The Trial doesn’t have to be either/or - but can exist in the middle of this peculiar triangle of dream / reality / nightmare (could it be the Bermuda Triangle of writing?!) But no matter how brilliant the theories – they cannot explain The Trial fully, because it is what it is. Things happen in the story because they happen. Further, I reject the idea that the Trial imparts a grand message (such as “choosing life” or “rebirthing & reforming one’s character” or “seeing the light” etc.). If it did, quite simply it would date. It retains its relevance across time and space, because it is imaginative, ambiguous - not because it is a cryptic puzzle that needs to be solved! The character K., as Prof Wisse pointed out, is treated mercilessly. Walter Benjamin, whose genius we could do well to listen more carefully to, explains that Kafka embraced failure. Hard to understand, harder to accept – but herein lies an authentic appraisal of Kafka’s vision. Kafka’s last sentence in The Trial: “it was if the shame must outlive him”, compares with his own last quote in his diary: “The only consolation would be: it happens whether you like or no And what you like is of infinitesimally little help. More than consolation is: you too have weapons.” David Pryce-Jones writes in his appreciation of Kafka: “The human condition may not be as random, as guilty, as weirdly callous as Kafka portrays it. On the other hand, at certain times and for certain people, it is far worse. The important point is that the individual is at the centre of it, a unique being,… no doubt at the mercy of sinister elements and of men both wicked and stupid. Though closed in from all sides, the individual, like Joseph K. in The Trial and Franz Kafka who was there before him, has to live it out alone. There is comfort to be derived from following a superior imagination to such a conclusion, in the face of so much of the jolly cant which passes for wisdom..” Good works of art have multiple meanings - but not infinite ones. Allowing the artist to retain his purity is not to hero-worship him, but to respect his art – even if it comes (and here I sincerely apologise if I offended with my previous choice of blunt adjectives) at the “expense” of “respecting other opinions”. (This, by the way, is not what I thought I was doing – I thought I was merely disagreeing! At least there is solace in knowing, unlike K., the crime I am accused of – that of being “unJewish”! Are we on trial within this group? Does someone own the definition of what is Jewish and what not?! If so, they should inform Jackie Mason.) Even though we take the book and our discussion seriously, I’d like to remember this particular encounter by celebrating some of the unexpected legacies of Kafka – such as Kyra’s humorous “coacrouche” and Uncle Robbie tickling his nieces and nephews, reminding them "they are free to go but they must never forget that they are under arrest"! Shalom, Heidi. Philip Shulman wrote:on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: "Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts." Thank you, Barbara, for your emotional suppport, and for the brilliant idea expressed above. I never thought of it that way before. Of course you are right: in dream language, birth and death can be understood symbolically as well as literally. Sometimes people dream of giving birth to their new self. Or sometimes of dying in order to be reborn as a new and different person - one can see that not just in Christian theology ("born-again Christians") but elsewhere. Perhaps K.'s death is, as you suggest, an "emotional death". And perhaps it is also a kind of acknowledgement that he has really been emotionally dead all along and now he is realizing it. Perhaps it is his old self that dies. Your interpretation is supported by his dim vision of a new way of living, of friendship, of caring, of helping, of people reaching out their arms to each other. I recently saw the fine Italian film "I'm not scared" which I strongly recommend - in this film, about two ten-year-old boys, one of them undergoes a sort of symbolic/literal descent into the underground, and is helped out, indeed his life is saved, at the risk of his own life, by the caring of the other boy. In a sense, both boys are reborn. At the end of the film, there is a beautiful scene in which the two boys reach out their arms to each other (as at the end of The Trial) leaving not a dry eye in the house, at least not mine. As Kafka says at the end, "logic is no doubt unshakable, but it can't withstand a person who wants to live." (Page 231). Perhaps we must affirm that K., like Tevye, does indeed go on living, despite everything. As the Jewish people go on living, despite everything. "Therefore choose life." Let us not be scared. Thank you again, Barbara, and everyone, for reaching out, for the privilege of bouncing ideas off each other. I am learning a lot. Shabbat Shalom. Kol Tuv. Philip on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: In the end, something new happens as both Elie and Philip point out: Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts. As Philip notes, to call another's comments "patronizing" or "dismissive" is unnecessary. Additionally, it is not very "Jewish" as one of the very beautiful symbols of our tradition teaches us to ask questions, to have differences of opinions with others to stimulate our own perception and not negate those of others. My thinking too has been extended and I thank you all for this opportunity. Shabbath Shalom. Barbara Cohen ________________________________________________ NGFP-BookClub mailing list NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub Nahum Goldmann Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ Jewish Heritage Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/ Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --0-857164729-1084705740=:70396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 

Let us at least recognise what is being done here with all these theories -  post-Freudian, Psycho-analytical, Theological, symbolic, etc.  Each tries desperately to infuse the life and death of K. with meaning – to give the character some purpose, some humanity.   

 

Seeing The Trial as a dream, is yet another attempt (albeit a more sophisticated one) to inject a rational or “understandable” approach to the story, rather than to accept that things in the book remain in a state of tension, unresolved.  If it is all a dream – Ah!  Then we can accept that the servants are flogged twice as if on a looped film because this happens in a dream.  The bizaare becomes explainable and K.’s dilemma becomes acceptable.  Precisely why I reject such a neat explanation.  As I said before – dream-like yes, nightmarish yes, but I think it gives the writer his due to say that it is also realistic-like (Kafka paid acute attention to accurately portraying anxiety / panic disorder – c/f K.’s entering & exiting the law courts).  The Trial doesn’t have to be either/or - but can exist in the middle of this peculiar triangle of dream / reality / nightmare (could it be the Bermuda Triangle of writing?!)

 

But no matter how brilliant the theories – they cannot explain The Trial fully, because it is what it is.  Things happen in the story because they happen.

 

Further, I reject the idea that the Trial imparts a grand message (such as “choosing life” or “rebirthing & reforming one’s character” or “seeing the light” etc.).  If it did, quite simply it would date.  It retains its relevance across time and space, because it is imaginative, ambiguous - not because it is a cryptic puzzle that needs to be solved!

The character K., as Prof Wisse pointed out, is treated mercilessly.  Walter Benjamin, whose genius we could do well to listen more carefully to, explains that Kafka embraced failure.  Hard to understand, harder to accept – but herein lies an authentic appraisal of Kafka’s vision.

 

Kafka’s last sentence in The Trial: “it was if the shame must outlive him”, compares with his own last quote in his diary:

“The only consolation would be: it happens whether you like or no  And what you like is of infinitesimally little help.  More than consolation is: you too have weapons.”

 

David Pryce-Jones writes in his appreciation of Kafka:

“The human condition may not be as random, as guilty, as weirdly callous as Kafka portrays it.  On the other hand, at certain times and for certain people, it is far worse.  The important point is that the individual is at the centre of it, a unique being,… no doubt at the mercy of sinister elements and of men both wicked and stupid.  Though closed in from all sides, the individual, like Joseph K. in The Trial and Franz Kafka who was there before him, has to live it out alone.  There is comfort to be derived from following a superior imagination to such a conclusion,  in the face of so much of the jolly cant which passes for wisdom..”

 

Good works of art have multiple meanings - but not infinite ones.  Allowing the artist to retain his purity is not to hero-worship him, but to respect his art – even if it comes (and here I sincerely apologise if I offended with my previous choice of blunt adjectives) at the “expense” of “respecting other opinions”.  (This, by the way, is not what I thought I was doing – I thought I was merely disagreeing!  At least there is solace in knowing, unlike K., the crime I am accused of – that of being “unJewish”!  Are we on trial within this group? Does someone own the definition of what is Jewish and what not?! If so, they should inform Jackie Mason.)

 

Even though we take the book and our discussion seriously, I’d like to remember this particular encounter by celebrating some of the unexpected legacies of Kafka – such as Kyra’s humorous “coacrouche” and Uncle Robbie tickling his nieces and nephews, reminding them "they are free to go but they must never forget that they are under arrest"!

 

Shalom,

Heidi.



Philip Shulman <philipdoc@earthlink.net> wrote:
on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote:

"Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he
comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has
learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so
calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a
journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts."

Thank you, Barbara, for your emotional suppport, and for the brilliant idea
expressed above. I never thought of it that way before. Of course you are
right: in dream language, birth and death can be understood symbolically as
well as literally. Sometimes people dream of giving birth to their new self.
Or sometimes of dying in order to be reborn as a new and different person -
one can see that not just in Christian theology ("born-again Christians")
but elsewhere. Perhaps K.'s death is, as you suggest, an "emotional death".
And perhaps it is also a kind of acknowledgement that he has really been
emotionally dead all along and now he is realizing it. Perhaps it is his old
self that dies. Your interpretation is supported by his dim vision of a new
way of living, of friendship, of caring, of helping, of people reaching out
their arms to each other. I recently saw the fine Italian film "I'm not
scared" which I strongly recommend - in this film, about two ten-year-old
boys, one of them undergoes a sort of symbolic/literal descent into the
underground, and is helped out, indeed his life is saved, at the risk of his
own life, by the caring of the other boy. In a sense, both boys are reborn.
At the end of the film, there is a beautiful scene in which the two boys
reach out their arms to each other (as at the end of The Trial) leaving not
a dry eye in the house, at least not mine. As Kafka says at the end, "logic
is no doubt unshakable, but it can't withstand a person who wants to live."
(Page 231). Perhaps we must affirm that K., like Tevye, does indeed go on
living, despite everything. As the Jewish people go on living, despite
everything. "Therefore choose life." Let us not be scared.
Thank you again, Barbara, and everyone, for reaching out, for the privilege
of bouncing ideas off each other. I am learning a lot.
Shabbat Shalom. Kol Tuv.
Philip


on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote:

In the end, something new happens as both Elie and Philip point out:

Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he
comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has
learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so
calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a
journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts.

As Philip notes, to call another's comments "patronizing" or "dismissive" is
unnecessary. Additionally, it is not very "Jewish" as one of the very
beautiful symbols of our tradition teaches us to ask questions, to have
differences of opinions with others to stimulate our own perception and not
negate those of others.

My thinking too has been extended and I thank you all for this opportunity.

Shabbath Shalom.

Barbara Cohen

________________________________________________
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NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org
http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub
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Jewish Heritage Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/
Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/

Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --0-857164729-1084705740=:70396-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 16 16:59:26 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 08:59:26 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Grand Message In-Reply-To: <20040516110900.70642.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3167542767_5028866_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Heidi and Barbara,- I think that differing views on this subject have been pretty fully expressed, and that this phase of the discussion is nearing an end, at leas= t for me. I feel much admiration for both of you, even as I get some sense o= f the blind men and the elephant. It is interesting that some of the legalistic atmosphere of "The Trial" has been contagious, and has entered into our own interactions, what with emotional charges, counter-charges, defenses against those charges etc. For myself, as I said elsewhere, Heidi= , I plead guilty to the charge of trying "to infuse the life and death of K. with meaning", however desperately, and I throw myself on the mercy of the court. As to the charge of Heidi being "unJewish", a much more serious charge, I vote for acquittal, citing lack of evidence, though I do appreciate your stepping in, Barbara, as my unpaid defence attorney. In m= y perception, Heidi's original charges against me were in the grand tradition of Jewish polemical argumentation, where it has not been unusual for forceful language to be uttered in the heat of the moment. Well, I hope tha= t some day the three of us will get together over a bottle of Baron Herzog wine to continue a lively discussion and to conclude that "Ende gut, Alles gut", even as we remain under arrest. That, for now, is my grand message. Best regards, Philip on 5/16/04 4:09 AM, Heidi Meyerson at hmmeyerson@yahoo.com wrote: Let us at least recognise what is being done here with all these theories = - post-Freudian, Psycho-analytical, Theological, symbolic, etc. Each tries desperately to infuse the life and death of K. with meaning =96 to give the character some purpose, some humanity. Seeing The Trial as a dream, is yet another attempt (albeit a more sophisticated one) to inject a rational or =93understandable=94 approach to the story, rather than to accept that things in the book remain in a state of tension, unresolved. If it is all a dream =96 Ah! Then we can accept that the servants are flogged twice as if on a looped film because this happens in a dream. The bizaare becomes explainable and K.=92s dilemma becomes acceptable. Precisely why I reject such a neat explanation. As I said before =96 dream-like yes, nightmarish yes, but I think it gives the writer his due to say that it is also realistic-like (Kafka paid acute attention t= o accurately portraying anxiety / panic disorder =96 c/f K.=92s entering & exitin= g the law courts). The Trial doesn=92t have to be either/or - but can exist in the middle of this peculiar triangle of dream / reality / nightmare (could it be the Bermuda Triangle of writing?!) But no matter how brilliant the theories =96 they cannot explain The Trial fully, because it is what it is. Things happen in the story because they happen.=20 Further, I reject the idea that the Trial imparts a grand message (such as =93choosing life=94 or =93rebirthing & reforming one=92s character=94 or =93seeing the light=94 etc.). If it did, quite simply it would date. It retains its relevance across time and space, because it is imaginative, ambiguous - not because it is a cryptic puzzle that needs to be solved! The character K., as Prof Wisse pointed out, is treated mercilessly. Walte= r Benjamin, whose genius we could do well to listen more carefully to, explains that Kafka embraced failure. Hard to understand, harder to accept =96 but herein lies an authentic appraisal of Kafka=92s vision. Kafka=92s last sentence in The Trial: =93it was if the shame must outlive him=94, compares with his own last quote in his diary: =93The only consolation would be: it happens whether you like or no And what you like is of infinitesimally little help. More than consolation is: you too have weapons.=94=20 David Pryce-Jones writes in his appreciation of Kafka: =93The human condition may not be as random, as guilty, as weirdly callous as Kafka portrays it. On the other hand, at certain times and for certain people, it is far worse. The important point is that the individual is at the centre of it, a unique being,=85 no doubt at the mercy of sinister elements and of men both wicked and stupid. Though closed in from all sides, the individual, like Joseph K. in The Trial and Franz Kafka who was there before him, has to live it out alone. There is comfort to be derived from following a superior imagination to such a conclusion, in the face of so much of the jolly cant which passes for wisdom..=94 Good works of art have multiple meanings - but not infinite ones. Allowing the artist to retain his purity is not to hero-worship him, but to respect his art =96 even if it comes (and here I sincerely apologise if I offended with my previous choice of blunt adjectives) at the =93expense=94 of =93respectin= g other opinions=94. (This, by the way, is not what I thought I was doing =96 I thought I was merely disagreeing! At least there is solace in knowing, unlike K., the crime I am accused of =96 that of being =93unJewish=94! Are we on trial within this group? Does someone own the definition of what is Jewish and what not?! If so, they should inform Jackie Mason.) Even though we take the book and our discussion seriously, I=92d like to remember this particular encounter by celebrating some of the unexpected legacies of Kafka =96 such as Kyra=92s humorous =93coacrouche=94 and Uncle Robbie tickling his nieces and nephews, reminding them "they are free to go but they must never forget that they are under arrest"! Shalom,=20 Heidi.=20 on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: In the end, something new happens as both Elie and Philip point out: Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts. As Philip notes, to call another's comments "patronizing" or "dismissive" i= s unnecessary. Additionally, it is not very "Jewish" as one of the very beautiful symbols of our tradition teaches us to ask questions, to have differences of opinions with others to stimulate our own perception and not negate those of others. My thinking too has been extended and I thank you all for this opportunity. Shabbath Shalom. Barbara Cohen --MS_Mac_OE_3167542767_5028866_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Grand Message Hi, Heidi and Barbara,-
  I think  that differing views on this subject have been p= retty fully expressed, and that this phase of the discussion is nearing an e= nd, at least for me.  I feel much admiration for both of you, even as I= get some sense of the blind men and the elephant. It is interesting that so= me of the legalistic atmosphere of "The Trial" has been contagious= , and has entered into our own interactions, what with emotional charges, co= unter-charges, defenses against those charges etc. For myself,  as I sa= id elsewhere, Heidi, I plead guilty to the charge of trying "to infuse = the life and death of K. with meaning", however desperately, and I thro= w myself on the mercy of the court. As to the charge of Heidi being "un= Jewish",  a much more serious charge, I vote for acquittal, citing= lack of evidence, though I do appreciate  your stepping in, Barbara, a= s my unpaid defence attorney.  In my perception, Heidi's original charg= es against me were in the grand tradition of Jewish polemical argumentation,= where it has not been unusual for forceful language to be uttered in the he= at of the moment. Well, I hope that some day the three of us will get togeth= er over a bottle of Baron Herzog wine to continue a lively discussion and to= conclude that  "Ende gut, Alles gut",  even as we remai= n under arrest. That, for now, is my grand message.
Best regards,
            &n= bsp;     Philip       = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;         

on 5/16/04 4:09 AM, Heidi Meyerson at hmmeyerson@yahoo.com wrote:

Let us at least recognise what is being done here with all the= se theories -  post-Freudian, Psycho-analytical, Theological, symbolic,= etc.  Each tries desperately to infuse the life and death of K. with m= eaning =96 to give the character some purpose, some humanity.   

Seeing The Trial as a dream, is yet another attempt (albeit a more s= ophisticated one) to inject a rational or =93understandable=94 approach to the s= tory, rather than to accept that things in the book remain in a state of ten= sion, unresolved.  If it is all a dream =96 Ah!  Then we can accept = that the servants are flogged twice as if on a looped film because this happ= ens in a dream.  The bizaare becomes explainable and K.=92s dilemma becom= es acceptable.  Precisely why I reject such a neat explanation.  A= s I said before =96 dream-like yes, nightmarish yes, but I think it gives the = writer his due to say that it is also realistic-like (Kafka paid acute atten= tion to accurately portraying anxiety / panic disorder =96 c/f K.=92s ent= ering & exiting the law courts).  The Trial doesn=92t have to = be either/or - but can exist in the middle of this peculiar triangle of drea= m / reality / nightmare (could it be the Bermuda Triangle of writing?!)

But no matter how brilliant the theories =96 they cannot explain The Trial= fully, because it is what it is.  Things happen in the story becau= se they happen.

Further, I reject the idea that the Trial imparts a grand message (s= uch as =93choosing life=94 or =93rebirthing & reforming one=92s character=94 or =93s= eeing the light=94 etc.).  If it did, quite simply it would date.  I= t retains its relevance across time and space, because it is imaginative, am= biguous - not because it is a cryptic puzzle that needs to be solved!

The character K., as Prof Wisse pointed out, is treated mercilessly.  = Walter Benjamin, whose genius we could do well to listen more carefully to, = explains that Kafka embraced failure.  Hard to understand, harder to ac= cept =96 but herein lies an authentic appraisal of Kafka=92s vision.

Kafka=92s last sentence in The Trial: =93it was if the shame must outliv= e him=94, compares with his own last quote in his diary:

=93The only consolation would be: it happens whether you like or no  And= what you like is of infinitesimally little help.  More than consolatio= n is: you too have weapons.=94

David Pryce-Jones writes in his appreciation of Kafka:

=93The human condition may not be as random, as guilty, as weirdly callous as= Kafka portrays it.  On the other hand, at certain times and for certai= n people, it is far worse.  The important point is that the individual = is at the centre of it, a unique being,=85 no doubt at the mercy of sinister e= lements and of men both wicked and stupid.  Though closed in from all s= ides, the individual, like Joseph K. in The Trial and Franz Kafka who= was there before him, has to live it out alone.  There is comfort to b= e derived from following a superior imagination to such a conclusion,  = in the face of so much of the jolly cant which passes for wisdom..=94

Good works of art have multiple meanings - but not infinite ones.  All= owing the artist to retain his purity is not to hero-worship him, but to res= pect his art =96 even if it comes (and here I sincerely apologise if I offende= d with my previous choice of blunt adjectives) at the =93expense=94 of =93respecti= ng other opinions=94.  (This, by the way, is not what I thought I was doi= ng =96 I thought I was merely disagreeing!  At least there is solace in k= nowing, unlike K., the crime I am accused of =96 that of being =93unJewish=94! &nb= sp;Are we on trial within this group? Does someone own the definition of wha= t is Jewish and what not?! If so, they should inform Jackie Mason.)

Even though we take the book and our discussion seriously, I=92d like to reme= mber this particular encounter by celebrating some of the unexpected legacie= s of Kafka =96 such as Kyra=92s humorous =93coacrouche=94 and Uncle Robbie tickling = his nieces and nephews, reminding them "they are free to go but they mu= st never forget that they are under arrest"!

Shalom,

Heidi.


on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote:<= BR>
In the end, something new happens as both Elie and Philip point out:

Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has
learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so
calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts.

As Philip notes, to call another's comments "patronizing" or &quo= t;dismissive" is
unnecessary. Additionally, it is not very "Jewish" as one of the = very
beautiful symbols of our tradition teaches us to ask questions, to have
differences of opinions with others to stimulate our own perception and not=
negate those of others.

My thinking too has been extended and I thank you all for this opportunity.=

Shabbath Shalom.

Barbara Cohen
--MS_Mac_OE_3167542767_5028866_MIME_Part-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 16 18:17:59 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 13:17:59 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040516123741.00bdf3d8@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_25735015==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It is true, as Heidi writes, that good works of art have multiple but not infinite meanings. The Trial gives us no choice but to interpret its meanings, while trying not to falsify the evidence it provides. Here, we have to look for meaning because the book demands it: "[It's] not a trial before a normal court," K. tells his uncle (Breon translation p. 93) "[This] is not a case before an ordinary court. (Muir translation, p. 96). Worse than K'.s wrongful arrest is that he doesn't understand the terms of his judgment. He wants the security of knowing right from wrong, guilt from innocence, good from evil. The book shows K. moving from sphere to sphere in search of that knowledge. He looks to law, he looks to art, he looks to practical experience. Each episode has its own humor and insight. In the climactic sequence, K. enters the house of God. In many synagogues, the inscription on the Ark reads, "Know Before Whom You Stand"--a directive that acquires new meaning for readers of The Trial. K. would like to know before whom he stands, but he lacks that essential knowledge. All moral certainty would have depended on gaining access to "the Law," to some inherent truth, but, like the man in the parable, he never makes it through the door. Among the many ways that you are all reading this book, dare we omit K.'s experience "in the cathedral?" Those great Houses of God once guaranteed moral security to those who entered their doors. K. seems diminished and crushed by the presence of a door he cannot enter. --=====================_25735015==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" It is true, as Heidi writes, that good works of art have multiple but not infinite meanings. The Trial gives us no choice but to interpret its meanings, while trying not to falsify the evidence it provides. Here, we have to look for meaning because the book demands it:
"[It's] not a trial before a normal court," K. tells his uncle (Breon translation p. 93)
"[This] is not a case before an ordinary court. (Muir translation, p. 96).
Worse than K'.s wrongful arrest is that he doesn't understand the terms of his judgment. He wants the security of knowing right from wrong, guilt from innocence, good from evil. The book shows K. moving from sphere to sphere in search of that knowledge. He looks to law, he looks to art, he looks to practical experience. Each episode has its own humor and insight.
In the climactic sequence, K. enters the house of God. In many synagogues, the inscription on the Ark reads, "Know Before Whom You Stand"--a directive that acquires new meaning for readers of The Trial.  K. would like to know before whom he stands, but he lacks that essential knowledge. All moral certainty would have depended on gaining access to "the Law," to some inherent truth, but, like the man in
the parable, he never makes it through the door.
Among the many ways that you are all reading this book, dare we omit K.'s experience "in the cathedral?" Those great Houses of God once guaranteed moral security to those who entered their doors. K. seems diminished and crushed by the presence of a door he cannot enter. --=====================_25735015==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 17 03:19:54 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:19:54 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040516123741.00bdf3d8@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <002401c43bb5$77fcc4b0$04021ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C43C09.42EEB950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ruth Wisse wrote: Among the many ways that you are all reading this book, dare we omit = K.'s experience "in the cathedral?" Those great Houses of God once = guaranteed moral security to those who entered their doors. K. seems = diminished and crushed by the presence of a door he cannot enter. To this Jew a Cathedral is more a Mansion of the State than a House of = God. The priest explicitly makes his connection with the State. The = priest said, "You must first see that I can't help being what I am." "You are the prison chaplain," said K., groping his way nearer to the = priest again; his immediate return to the bank was not as necessary as = he made out, he could well stay longer. "That means I belong to the court," said the priest. "So why should I = make any claims on you? The court makes no claims on you. It receives = you when you come and relinquishes you when you go." This reassurance to K. that he has nothing to fear is significant to me = since the very next chapter is the end. Here Kafka adumbrates that = bureaucratic application of Christianity, the Holocaust, where some Jews = placed on the trains were assured that they were just being resettled. = Six million k***s were annihilated. Enlightened Christians have made the connection between state and church = as partners in oppression. Gibbon wrote, "The influence of the clergy, = in an age of superstition might be usefully employed to assert the = rights of mankind; but so intimate is the connection between the throne = and the altar; that the banner of the church has seldom been seen on the = side of the people." David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C43C09.42EEB950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ruth Wisse wrote:
 
Among the many ways that you are all reading this book, dare we = omit K.'s=20 experience "in the cathedral?" Those great Houses of God once guaranteed = moral=20 security to those who entered their doors. K. seems diminished and = crushed by=20 the presence of a door he cannot enter.
 
To this Jew a Cathedral is more = a Mansion=20 of the State than a House of God. The priest explicitly makes his = connection=20 with the State. The priest said, "You must first see that I can't help = being=20 what I am."
 
 "You are the prison = chaplain," said=20 K., groping his way nearer to the priest again; his immediate return to = the bank=20 was not as necessary as he made out, he could well stay = longer.
 
"That means I belong to the = court," said=20 the priest. "So why should I make any claims on you? The court makes no = claims=20 on you. It receives you when you come and relinquishes you when you=20 go."
 
This reassurance to K. = that he has=20 nothing to fear is significant to me since the very next chapter is = the=20 end. Here Kafka adumbrates that bureaucratic application of = Christianity, the=20 Holocaust, where some Jews placed on the trains were assured that they = were just=20 being resettled. Six million k***s were annihilated.
 
Enlightened Christians have = made the=20 connection between state and church as partners in = oppression. Gibbon=20 wrote, "The influence of the clergy, in an age of superstition might be = usefully=20 employed to assert the rights of mankind; but so intimate is the = connection=20 between the throne and the altar; that the banner of the church has = seldom been=20 seen on the side of the people."
 
David = Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C43C09.42EEB950-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 17 05:15:39 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:15:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court Message-ID: <18504634.1084767340176.JavaMail.root@wamui09.slb.atl.earthlink.net>
On the other hand... isn't the priest enigmatically saying he is defined by K's perception?  And K has no basis other than a legalistic one to define anyone, except his sexual partners.  (an aside: I see his sexuality as his sole remaining active link to his own soul).
 
Not that it's incorrect to see priesthood and Church (portrayed here as monolithic) as legal and political entities.  But this is a result of K's perception as much as it is from what the priest says.  And my clear sense with K's "...could well stay longer" is that he wants, even hopes to be shown something else.
 
Just as he was excited by the artist's skill yet disappointed in his identical drab landscapes, here he seems hopeful of fresh perceptions but disappointed again.  The parallel seems to me to be apt: art and religion are salvific to the degree that the viewer is led through and *beyond* the human condition of the artist/priest, to something more deeply meaningful.
 
K throws his language guide down, in preparation to learn a new lexicon, and is faced with his own perceptual limitations.  He could as easily have said to the priest, "...you are the agent of a power unknown to me."  But of course, he is by this time too engrossed in the judicial mode to do so, or perhaps he is unwilling to even consider giving up control to an unknown G-d. 
 
Well, trying out the idea... I like that K is the prisoner only of his own perceptions, free to come and go, but ever under arrest.  In the end, it's all we really control, isn't it?  I'm going to remember that when I read it again.
 
Elie Aharon



-----Original Message-----
From: David FISHER
Sent: May 16, 2004 9:19 PM
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court

Ruth Wisse wrote:
 
Among the many ways that you are all reading this book, dare we omit K.'s experience "in the cathedral?" Those great Houses of God once guaranteed moral security to those who entered their doors. K. seems diminished and crushed by the presence of a door he cannot enter.
 
To this Jew a Cathedral is more a Mansion of the State than a House of God. The priest explicitly makes his connection with the State. The priest said, "You must first see that I can't help being what I am."
 
 "You are the prison chaplain," said K., groping his way nearer to the priest again; his immediate return to the bank was not as necessary as he made out, he could well stay longer.
 
"That means I belong to the court," said the priest. "So why should I make any claims on you? The court makes no claims on you. It receives you when you come and relinquishes you when you go."

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 17 05:48:36 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 23:48:36 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Reaching out - Choosing life Message-ID: <8568011.1084769316294.JavaMail.root@wamui09.slb.atl.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Shulman Sent: May 14, 2004 1:17 PM To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Reaching out - Choosing life on 5/14/04 8:59 AM, Barbara S. Cohen at barbarascohen@earthlink.net wrote: "Perhaps the death that K is experiencing is an emotional death, where he comes to terms with himself, in an honest way. It could be as if he has learned some of the lessons that life has taught him from being so calculating and detached from himself, his soul and others. Maybe it is a journey towards something new, a self-realization of sorts." Thank you, Barbara, for your emotional suppport, and for the brilliant idea expressed above. I never thought of it that way before. Of course you are right: in dream language, birth and death can be understood symbolically as well as literally. Sometimes people dream of giving birth to their new self. Or sometimes of dying in order to be reborn as a new and different person - one can see that not just in Christian theology ("born-again Christians") but elsewhere. Perhaps K.'s death is, as you suggest, an "emotional death". And perhaps it is also a kind of acknowledgement that he has really been emotionally dead all along and now he is realizing it. Perhaps it is his old self that dies. ===================================== [Elie says] trying this out... sometimes when I hear myself say it, I know what I mean... Both Tevye and K are confronted over the scope of our time with them by the blank canvases of new conditions. Though both are in different ways powerless, Tevye has a rich palette of tradition, relationships and humor to use in constructing his responses. K is limited to a bleak palette of legalism, manipulation, and diminishing influence and prestige, the only "color" in his palette being sexual seduction, and even that to take pleasure, not give it. In the end, Tevye's "l'chaim" palette yields a work of art, pointing beyond itself to the humanity of the artist, and even beyond to his Creator, despite his powerlessness over the conditions that ultimately shape his life. At Tevye's death, we can imagine him sighing over his losses, but comforted by his efforts and the relationships he recalls. At K's death, we see him grasping for a new canvass, having produced only bleak art, but that with the sense all along that something different was possible, if only.... if only what? If only he had dared. Dared what? Dared see, risk involvement, color. But by then the best he can do is dare to die, at least that with his hands open, honest, ready to receive... So we have K as a warning... look to our palettes! Only we can define them, after all. Well, as I said, trying it out. Elie Aharon ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 18 02:07:38 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:07:38 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <18504634.1084767340176.JavaMail.root@wamui09.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000701c43c74$a6d11650$bd011ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43CC8.54B154D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the other hand... isn't the priest enigmatically saying he is defined = by K's perception? And K has no basis other than a legalistic one to = define anyone, except his sexual partners. (an aside: I see his = sexuality as his sole remaining active link to his own soul). Not that it's incorrect to see priesthood and Church (portrayed here as = monolithic) as legal and political entities. But this is a result of = K's perception as much as it is from what the priest says. And my clear = sense with K's "...could well stay longer" is that he wants, even hopes = to be shown something else. Just as he was excited by the artist's skill yet disappointed in his = identical drab landscapes, here he seems hopeful of fresh perceptions = but disappointed again. The parallel seems to me to be apt: art and = religion are salvific to the degree that the viewer is led through and = *beyond* the human condition of the artist/priest, to something more = deeply meaningful. K throws his language guide down, in preparation to learn a new lexicon, = and is faced with his own perceptual limitations. He could as easily = have said to the priest, "...you are the agent of a power unknown to = me." But of course, he is by this time too engrossed in the judicial = mode to do so, or perhaps he is unwilling to even consider giving up = control to an unknown G-d.=20 Well, trying out the idea... I like that K is the prisoner only of his = own perceptions, free to come and go, but ever under arrest. In the = end, it's all we really control, isn't it? I'm going to remember that = when I read it again. Elie Aharon Dear Elie, Maybe K is everyman. We are all under a death sentence. Unless we have = been formally condemned we don't know the date. The existential dilemma = is letting fate carry us to our eventual destination or determining it = by our own hand. "To be or not to be." is possibly our only real = decision. David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43CC8.54B154D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On the other hand... isn't the priest enigmatically saying he = is=20 defined by K's perception?  And K has no basis other than a = legalistic one=20 to define anyone, except his sexual partners.  (an aside: I see his = sexuality as his sole remaining active link to his own soul).
 
Not that it's incorrect to see priesthood and Church = (portrayed here as monolithic) as legal and political entities.  = But this=20 is a result of K's perception as much as it is from what = the=20 priest says.  And my clear sense with K's "...could well stay = longer" is=20 that he wants, even hopes to be shown something else.
 
Just as he was excited by the artist's skill yet disappointed in = his=20 identical drab landscapes, here he seems hopeful of fresh perceptions = but=20 disappointed again.  The parallel seems to me to be apt: art and = religion=20 are salvific to the degree that the viewer is led through and *beyond* = the human=20 condition of the artist/priest, to something more deeply = meaningful.
 
K throws his language guide down, in preparation to learn a new = lexicon,=20 and is faced with his own perceptual limitations.  He could as = easily=20 have said to the priest, "...you are the agent of a power unknown to = me." =20 But of course, he is by this time too engrossed in the judicial mode to = do so,=20 or perhaps he is unwilling to even consider giving up control to an = unknown=20 G-d. 
 
Well, trying out the idea... I like that K is the prisoner only of = his own=20 perceptions, free to come and go, but ever under arrest.  In the = end, it's=20 all we really control, isn't it?  I'm going to remember that when I = read it=20 again.
 
Elie Aharon
 
Dear Elie,
 
Maybe K is everyman. We are all = under a=20 death sentence. Unless we have been formally condemned we don't = know the=20 date. The existential dilemma is letting fate carry us to our eventual=20 destination or determining it by our own hand. "To be or not to be." is = possibly=20 our only real decision.
 
David = Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43CC8.54B154D0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 18 19:50:45 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 04:50:45 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040516123741.00bdf3d8@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <003a01c43d09$3363e040$1a011ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C43D5C.D8D1F320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: ruth wisse=20 It is true, as Heidi writes, that good works of art have multiple but = not infinite meanings. The Trial gives us no choice but to interpret its = meanings, while trying not to falsify the evidence it provides. Here, we = have to look for meaning because the book demands it:=20 Dear Ruth Wisse: I have a Secker & Warburg edition of Kafka's works. In addition to some = fictions there is a long letter to his father and his diaries from 1910 = to 1923. In the letter to his father the following appears on p. 571: "You (Kafka's father) are, admittedly, a chief subject of conversation = between us (Franz and his sister), as of our thoughts ever since we can = remember, but truly it is not in order to plot something against you = that we sit together, but in order to discuss - with all our might and = main, jokingly and seriously, in affection, defiance, anger, revulsion, = submission, consciousness of guilt, with all the resources of our head = and heart - this terrible trial that is pending between us and you, to = discuss it in all its details, from all sides, on all occasions, from = far and near - a trial in which you keep on claiming to be the judge, = whereas, at least inthe main (here I leave a margin for all the mistakes = I may naturally make), you are a party too, just and weak and deluded as = we are." In his letter Kafka refers several times to his feelings of guilt and on = p. 175: "This is the manner in which you are in the habit of twisting your = undoubted innocence into an unjust reproach to others." There are several pages about Kafka and his father's attitude toward = their Jewishness and its part in their conflict. David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C43D5C.D8D1F320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: ruth wisse
 
It is true, as Heidi writes, that good works of art have multiple = but not=20 infinite meanings. The Trial gives us no choice but to interpret = its=20 meanings, while trying not to falsify the evidence it provides. Here, we = have to=20 look for meaning because the book demands it:
 
Dear Ruth Wisse:
 
I have a Secker & Warburg = edition of=20 Kafka's works. In addition to some fictions there is a long letter to = his father=20 and his diaries from 1910 to 1923.
 
In the letter to his father the = following=20 appears on p. 571:
 
"You (Kafka's father) are, = admittedly, a=20 chief subject of conversation between us (Franz and his sister), as of = our=20 thoughts ever since we can remember, but truly it is not in order = to plot=20 something against you that we sit together, but in order to = discuss  - with=20 all our might and main, jokingly and seriously, in affection, defiance, = anger,=20 revulsion, submission, consciousness of guilt, with all the resources of = our=20 head and heart - this terrible trial that is pending between us and you, = to=20 discuss it in all its details, from all sides, on all occasions, from = far and=20 near - a trial in which you keep on claiming to be the judge, whereas, = at least=20 inthe main (here I leave a margin for all the mistakes I may naturally = make),=20 you are a party too, just and weak and deluded as we are."
 
In his letter Kafka refers=20 several times to his feelings = of guilt=20 and on p. 175:
 
"This is the manner in which = you are in the=20 habit of twisting your undoubted innocence into an unjust reproach to=20 others."
 
There are several=20 pages about Kafka and his father's attitude toward their Jewishness = and its=20 part in their conflict.
 
David Fisher
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C43D5C.D8D1F320-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Tue May 18 20:13:38 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 14:13:38 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court Message-ID: <16649780.1084907618897.JavaMail.root@wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: David FISHER
Sent: May 17, 2004 8:07 PM
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court

 
Dear Elie,
 
Maybe K is everyman. We are all under a death sentence. Unless we have been formally condemned we don't know the date. The existential dilemma is letting fate carry us to our eventual destination or determining it by our own hand. "To be or not to be." is possibly our only real decision.
 
David Fisher
====================================
 
Yes David, grim though that is, it's true... but there's more.  I re-read the ending, and there is another person, in the house, leaning out the window with arms spread as if in invitation or imploring, saying or at least hinting that there is more to experience.  If nothing else, there is connection as K mimics the gesture with splayed fingers.
 
"Life is serious, but not hopeless", says one.  Another replies, "No!  Life is hopeless, but not serious!"
 
I wonder what K would have been like on prozac?  *poof*... no book!  I'm beginning to subscribe to the theory that it's a deep and evocative portrayal of Kafka's depressed state after he broke off his engagement with the real life "FB".
 
Elie
 
 
 
 
 

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 19 00:05:39 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barry) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 00:05:39 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal cour t Message-ID: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2E8@SERVER1> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43D2C.A2CBD820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is all so serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and his friends were laughing as he read the first chapter to them? Was the joke on us. the reader - or what? Barry Abrahamson ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43D2C.A2CBD820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
This is all so serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and his friends  were laughing as he read the first chapter to them?  Was the joke on us. the reader - or what?
Barry Abrahamson
------_=_NextPart_001_01C43D2C.A2CBD820-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 19 04:02:58 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Tomer) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 13:02:58 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2E8@SERVER1> Message-ID: <009d01c43d4d$ca869410$0100000a@Tomer> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01C43DA1.9C07C380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Life is serious, but not hopeless", says one. Another replies, "No! = Life is hopeless, but not serious!" perhaps entirely in keeping with the most profound existential angst, = that they should laugh. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barry=20 To: 'ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: RE: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal = court This is all so serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and = his friends were laughing as he read the first chapter to them? Was = the joke on us. the reader - or what? Barry Abrahamson ------=_NextPart_000_009A_01C43DA1.9C07C380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Life is serious, but not = hopeless",=20 says one.  Another replies, "No!  Life is hopeless, but not=20 serious!"
 
perhaps entirely in keeping with the = most=20 profound existential angst, that they should laugh.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barry
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 = 9:05=20 AM
Subject: RE: [NGFP-BookClub] it = is not a=20 normal trial before a normal court

This is all so=20 serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and his friends  = were=20 laughing as he read the first chapter to them?  Was the joke on = us. the=20 reader - or what?
Barry=20 Abrahamson
------=_NextPart_000_009A_01C43DA1.9C07C380-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 19 06:23:35 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 15:23:35 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2E8@SERVER1> Message-ID: <003f01c43d61$e133ffe0$8d021ad3@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C43DB5.405454E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is all so serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and his = friends were laughing as he read the first chapter to them? Was the = joke on us. the reader - or what? Barry Abrahamson Dear Barry, I imagine that Kafka made a pastiche of his and his friends' = idiosyncrasies, and the friends found themselves laughing when they = recognized one of the bits. I found myself laughing while reading = Kafka's letter to his father. My wife looked at me and asked, "You find something funny in Kafka?" I read the following: "I am amazed by everything (that did not trouble = me) as by a miracle, for instance my good digestion -" I am 78, can read without glasses, have no ailments that I know of, do = not have false teeth, have normal blood pressure, normal cholesterol and = a sex life. Yet, if I feel the rare ache or twinge, possibly it's = cancer. I imagine his friends recognized many other things about = themselves. Jack Benny's stinginess, Woody Allen's nebbishness and Kafka's = hypochondria are all Jewish humor. One laughs at oneself.=20 One also can read The Trial as a comic work. One takes one's worst = fears, exaggerates them and laughs. Jewish band leader, Meyer Davis: "So we're dancing at the edge of a = precipice? At least, it's my music." My Aunt Miriam: "I called Martin. He didn't answer the phone. Naturally, = I expected the worst." I wrote a funny story about a man arranging for his mother's funeral and = thinking what a liar she was. I got a letter from the publisher. My wife = saw the letter. "Ah, a rejection." "No. They are publishing it." She didn't speak to me for an hour and a half. "Don't take it serious. It's too mysterious. You work. You slave. You = worry so, but you can't take your dough when you go, go, go." (Life is = just a bowl of cherries) David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C43DB5.405454E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is all so=20 serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and his friends  = were=20 laughing as he read the first chapter to them?  Was the joke on us. = the=20 reader - or what?
 
Barry Abrahamson
 
Dear=20 Barry,
 
I = imagine that=20 Kafka made a pastiche of his and his friends' idiosyncrasies, and = the=20 friends found themselves laughing when they recognized one of the = bits. I=20 found myself laughing while reading Kafka's letter to his=20 father.
 
My = wife looked at=20 me and asked, "You find something funny in Kafka?"
 
I = read the=20 following: "I am amazed by everything (that did not trouble me) as by a = miracle, for=20 instance my good digestion -"
 
I = am 78, can read=20 without glasses, have no ailments that I know of, do not have false = teeth,=20 have normal blood pressure, normal cholesterol and a sex life. Yet, = if I=20 feel the rare ache or twinge, possibly it's cancer. I imagine = his=20 friends recognized many other things about = themselves.
 
Jack Benny's=20 stinginess, Woody Allen's nebbishness and Kafka's hypochondria are all = Jewish=20 humor. One laughs at oneself.
 
One = also can read=20 The Trial as a comic work. One takes one's worst fears, = exaggerates=20 them and laughs.
 
Jewish band=20 leader, Meyer Davis: "So we're dancing at the edge of a precipice? = At=20 least, it's my music."
 
My = Aunt Miriam:=20 "I called Martin. He didn't answer the phone. Naturally, I expected the=20 worst."
 
I = wrote a funny=20 story about a man arranging for his mother's funeral and thinking = what a=20 liar she was. I got a letter from the publisher. My wife saw the=20 letter.
 
"Ah, a=20 rejection."
 
"No. They are=20 publishing it."
 
She = didn't speak=20 to me for an hour and a half.
 
"Don't take it=20 serious. It's too mysterious. You work. You slave. You worry so, but you = can't=20 take your dough when you go, go, go." (Life is just a bowl of=20 cherries)
 
David=20 Fisher
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C43DB5.405454E0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 19 16:05:48 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:05:48 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2E8@SERVER1> <009d01c43d4d$ca869410$0100000a@Tomer> Message-ID: <000b01c43db2$c4a8db10$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C43D78.182FC450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Life is serious but not hopeless ," says one. Another replies, "No! = Life is hopeless, but not serious!" In re-reading the last pages of The Trial, the chapter titled, = fragments, K decides that he must revisit his mother. Her vision is = failing, and apparently she had been in an ill state, or some type of = declining condition. What follows, however, is a notation by K, that he = notices, almost with REPUGNANCE, that his mother has become excessively = pious. A letter from his cousin describes how his mother, who before had = struggled to drag herself about now positively strode along on his arm = when he took her to church on Sunday (pp.263-264.) Perhaps, K sees this again, as a reference to the seriousness of = life....That there is a solution, that one can transform oneself from = that hopeless state into something more serious through a state of = piousness... Just a thought. Tomar's point about existential angst is well taken. Barbara S. Cohen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tomer=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal = court "Life is serious, but not hopeless", says one. Another replies, "No! = Life is hopeless, but not serious!" perhaps entirely in keeping with the most profound existential angst, = that they should laugh. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barry=20 To: 'ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org'=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: RE: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a = normal court This is all so serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and = his friends were laughing as he read the first chapter to them? Was = the joke on us. the reader - or what? Barry Abrahamson ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C43D78.182FC450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Life is serious but not = hopeless ," says one.=20 Another replies, "No! Life is hopeless, but not serious!"
 
In re-reading the last pages of The = Trial,=20 the chapter titled, fragments, K decides that he must revisit his = mother.=20 Her vision is failing, and apparently she had been in an ill state, or = some type=20 of declining condition. What follows, however, is a notation by K, that = he=20 notices, almost with REPUGNANCE, that his mother has become excessively = pious. A=20 letter from his cousin describes how his mother, who before had = struggled to=20 drag herself about now positively strode along on his arm when he took = her to=20 church on Sunday (pp.263-264.)
 
Perhaps, K sees this again, as a = reference to the=20 seriousness of life....That there is a solution, that one can transform = oneself=20 from that hopeless state into something more serious through a state of=20 piousness...
 
Just a thought. Tomar's point about = existential=20 angst is well taken.
 
Barbara S. Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tomer=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 = 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] it = is not a=20 normal trial before a normal court

"Life is serious, but not = hopeless",=20 says one.  Another replies, "No!  Life is hopeless, but not=20 serious!"
 
perhaps entirely in keeping with the = most=20 profound existential angst, that they should laugh.
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barry
To: 'ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.= org'=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 = 9:05=20 AM
Subject: RE: [NGFP-BookClub] = it is not=20 a normal trial before a normal court

This is all=20 so serious, but can someone explain to me why Kafka and his = friends =20 were laughing as he read the first chapter to them?  Was the = joke on=20 us. the reader - or what?
Barry=20 = Abrahamson
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C43D78.182FC450-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Wed May 19 19:34:17 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 14:34:17 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] it is not a normal trial before a normal court References: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2E8@SERVER1> <003f01c43d61$e133ffe0$8d021ad3@dmfw0001> Message-ID: <40ABA8A9.20908@xs4all.nl> Dear all, By now, I think, we have left K. and his author well behind us. The discussion has increasingly become an exchange of idiosyncrasies, some funny, some a little annoying. But the point is: we may all be reading too much of ourselves into Kafka's work. Barry's question has provoked answers that take us IMHO far from Kafka. Having visited Central and Eastern Europe quite often myself, as well as having studied interbellum Central European culture, I think that the sense of humor that you find there (and especially: found there while the Communists were still in power) is very different from that in the Western world. There is a sense of the absurd, a wry sense of black humor, that is hard to stomach for most Westerners. Bitterness and fatalism are mixed with a feeling that, life being the bitch it is, you better laugh at it. I get the same feeling from Kafka's work. Yes, his work is funny sometimes, but there is no 'comic relief', the humor just adds to the sense of despair and desolation. This is how Kafka and his generation (read the works of his contemporaries in the Austrian Empire) perceived life. And we better recognize how different they were, if we ever want to understand Kafka's work on its own terms. I also think, but this applies to every author in that era and a long time after it, not only Jewish and not only Central European, we shouldn't underestimate the influence of psycho-analysis on his work. Not in the limited sense of using Freudian concepts, but rather in the sense of using the stream-of-consciousness, the dream-like associations to tell a story. These are my two cents for today. Best, Manja Ressler From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Thu May 20 17:10:08 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 09:10:08 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Breaking news: Kafka Initiative in Belgium! In-Reply-To: <000b01c43db2$c4a8db10$6c02a8c0@isaac> Message-ID: Guess what, folks? Kafka is alive and well in Belgium! Belgium's first Secretary of State for Administrative Simplification, one Vincent Van Quickenborne, has launched the "Kafka Initiative", named after his hero and ours. Its aim: "slaying the bureaucratic monster" as first described by Kafka. Belgians are asked to send in complaints about absurd red tape. He has set up an office of seventeen - yes, you guessed it - bureaucrats, to pursue this goal. Roger Mene, president of the Union of Middle Classes, comments "The more people talk about it, the less gets done." Kafka and friends, wherever they are, must still be laughing. For further information: http://www.kafka.be/ (in French) Wall Street Journal - May 20,2004 - page A11 Yours in Kafka, Philip From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 21 14:08:02 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 09:08:02 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Breaking news: Kafka Initiative in Belgium! References: Message-ID: <40ADFF32.8060709@xs4all.nl> Thank you, Philip, for brightening this grey morning. I certainly had a good laugh. And now wait and see how long it takes for this office becomes what it tries to defeat. Kafka could have written the script. Manja Philip Shulman wrote: >Guess what, folks? Kafka is alive and well in Belgium! Belgium's first >Secretary of State for Administrative Simplification, one Vincent Van >Quickenborne, has launched the "Kafka Initiative", named after his hero and >ours. Its aim: "slaying the bureaucratic monster" as first described by >Kafka. Belgians are asked to send in complaints about absurd red tape. He >has set up an office of seventeen - yes, you guessed it - bureaucrats, to >pursue this goal. Roger Mene, president of the Union of Middle Classes, >comments "The more people talk about it, the less gets done." Kafka and >friends, wherever they are, must still be laughing. For further information: > >http://www.kafka.be/ (in French) > >Wall Street Journal - May 20,2004 - page A11 > >Yours in Kafka, >Philip >________________________________________________ >NGFP-BookClub mailing list >NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org >http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub >Nahum Goldmann Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ >Jewish Heritage Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/ >Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/ > > > > From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 21 17:20:12 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barry) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 17:20:12 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Breaking news: Kafka lives Message-ID: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F2F5@SERVER1> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F4F.7E358720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Philip What a wonderful and fitting conclusion to this weeks K discussion. Thank you so much telling us all about it. Shabbat shalom to all Barry ------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F4F.7E358720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [NGFP-BookClub] Breaking news: Kafka lives

Philip
What a wonderful and fitting conclusion to this = weeks K discussion.  Thank you so much telling us all about = it.
Shabbat shalom to all
Barry

------_=_NextPart_001_01C43F4F.7E358720-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Fri May 21 17:31:20 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 12:31:20 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Red Cavalry Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040521114028.00ba5268@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_10258468==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It is time to move on to the third book on our course, as different from the preceding two as The Trial was from Tevye the Dairyman. Here is the link with some information on author and book and the suggested pages of The Modern Jewish Canon that should provide at least some background on this work. http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson3 I will not try to summarize the discussion of The Trial. I'm sure that some of you who did not join in the discussion have your own ideas about both the novel and what was said about it. As I wrote earlier, Kafka has emptied out the character to such a degree that readers feel obliged to fill in what the author hasn't supplied. He has provided us with a mystery about right and wrong without supplying the context within which the standards of right and wrong can be established. The reader is free to dismiss the whole affair--"to heck with this. It doesn't concern me." But any reader who sticks with the book will have to try to fill in some of what the author fails to supply. Babel opens his story like a military correspondent: He uses military shorthand for "The Commander of the Sixth Division." He tells us how the army is deployed. He is crisp and factual. He seems utterly unsentimental. The war on which he is reporting is the Polish-Russian war of 1920. The more you learn about this war (from other sources), the more you will see that the stories follow the ebb and flow of the action. The narrator will not "spoon-feed" us readers with information and attitudes. He is taking us into the heat of battle with him. If you read very carefully, you will begin to get a feel for the narrator and the situation he is describing. The events occur just after the Bolshevik Revolution, when many people had very high hopes for the new Communist Regime of Russia. The narrator has signed on as a correspondent for the army paper, The Red Trooper, but don't imagine a journalist of the type that accompanies the American or British troops: the Bolshevik "journalist" was a party liner pure and simple, expected to deliver Lenin's line at all times, in all situations. But what the narrator is giving us in these stories is something he is writing on his own time. This is not part of his reportage--this is his personal coverage of the war, which is not entirely in sync with the Bolshevik message. The work is filled with all the contradictions that he has to leave out of his professional reportage. Among the contradictions that surface as we learn more about him: he is a Jew who has joined the Bolsheviks. He is a refined writer who is employed as a propagandist. He is a "milky" man who has joined an army at war. He is a city boy riding with the Cossacks. Officially, Bolshevism has equalized all citizens, but actually, the cultural differences are as deep as ever. The narrator realizes all this. Red Cavalry aspires to being the epic of the new Russian literature. --=====================_10258468==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" It is time to move on to the third book on our course, as different from the preceding two as The Trial was from Tevye the Dairyman. Here is the link with some information on author and book and the suggested pages of The Modern Jewish Canon that should provide at least some background on this work. http://members.ngfp.org/Courses/Wisse/lesson3

I will not try to summarize the discussion of The Trial. I'm sure that some of you who did not join in the discussion have your own ideas about both the novel and what was said about it. As I wrote earlier, Kafka has emptied out the character to such a degree that readers feel obliged to fill in what the author hasn't supplied. He has provided us with a mystery about right and wrong without supplying the context within which the standards of right and wrong can be established. The reader is free to dismiss the whole affair--"to heck with this. It doesn't concern me." But any reader who sticks with the book will have to try to fill in some of what the author fails to supply.

Babel opens his story like a military correspondent: He uses military shorthand for "The Commander of the Sixth Division." He tells us how the army is deployed. He is crisp and factual. He seems utterly unsentimental. The war on which he is reporting is the Polish-Russian war of 1920. The more you learn about this war (from other sources), the more you will see that the  stories follow the ebb and flow of the action. The narrator will not "spoon-feed" us readers with information and attitudes. He is taking us into the heat of battle with him.
If you read very carefully, you will begin to get a feel for the narrator and the situation he is describing. The events occur just after the Bolshevik Revolution, when many people had very high hopes for the new Communist Regime of Russia. The narrator has signed on as a correspondent for the army paper, The Red Trooper, but don't imagine a journalist of the type that accompanies the American or British troops: the Bolshevik "journalist" was a party liner pure and simple, expected to deliver Lenin's line at all times, in all situations. But what the narrator is giving us in these stories is something he is writing on his own time. This is not part of his reportage--this is his personal coverage of the war, which is not entirely in sync with the Bolshevik message. The work is filled with all the contradictions that he has to leave out of his professional reportage.

Among the contradictions that surface as we learn more about him: he is a Jew who has joined the Bolsheviks. He is a refined writer who is employed as a propagandist. He is a "milky" man who has joined an army at war. He is a city boy riding with the Cossacks. Officially, Bolshevism has equalized all citizens, but actually, the cultural differences are as deep as ever. The narrator realizes all this. Red Cavalry aspires to being the epic of the new Russian literature.  

  --=====================_10258468==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 22 00:54:46 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 09:54:46 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] offline References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040521114028.00ba5268@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <008e01c43f8f$af9e8010$373d32d2@dmfw0001> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C43FE2.D0A7C070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ruth Wisse, I have a question about Kafka. Was his letter to his father actually = sent to his father? Did his father respond to it? This is a matter of some interest to me as I wrote a long letter to my = father and posted it to my cousin who lived in the same town. I posted = it to my cousin as I didn't wish my mother to see the letter. I was = taken aback some time later when my father wrote me and asked why I = never wrote him. I pointed that I had written a long letter to which he = never responded and asked if my cousin had given to him. He wrote that = he didn't think it worth answering. Thank you very much for this fascinating discussion. I am also reading = your Peretz reader. David Fisher ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C43FE2.D0A7C070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ruth Wisse,
 
I have a question about Kafka. Was his = letter to=20 his father actually sent to his father? Did his father respond to=20 it?
 
This is a matter of some interest to me = as I wrote=20 a long letter to my father and posted it to my cousin who lived in the = same=20 town. I posted it to my cousin as I didn't wish my mother to see = the=20 letter. I was taken aback some time later when my father = wrote me=20 and asked why I never wrote him. I pointed that I had written a long = letter to=20 which he never responded and asked if my cousin had given to him. He = wrote that=20 he didn't think it worth answering.
 
Thank you very much for this = fascinating=20 discussion. I am also reading your Peretz reader.
 
David Fisher
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0078_01C43FE2.D0A7C070-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 22 11:39:12 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 06:39:12 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] offline In-Reply-To: <008e01c43f8f$af9e8010$373d32d2@dmfw0001> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040521114028.00ba5268@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040522063325.02439cb0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_1044562==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear David, Max Brod, whom Kafka appointed his literary executor, reported that Kafka wrote the letter in November 1919, and gave it to his mother to pass on to his father. Apparently, she read it and did not pass it on to her husband but returned it to her son. Brod speculates that she knew her husband would have failed to respond, just as in your case. I am so glad that you are enjoying the discussion. Yours, Ruth At 09:54 AM 5/22/2004 +1000, you wrote: >Dear Ruth Wisse, > >I have a question about Kafka. Was his letter to his father actually sent >to his father? Did his father respond to it? > >This is a matter of some interest to me as I wrote a long letter to my >father and posted it to my cousin who lived in the same town. I posted it >to my cousin as I didn't wish my mother to see the letter. I was taken >aback some time later when my father wrote me and asked why I never wrote >him. I pointed that I had written a long letter to which he never >responded and asked if my cousin had given to him. He wrote that he didn't >think it worth answering. > >Thank you very much for this fascinating discussion. I am also reading >your Peretz reader. > >David Fisher > > --=====================_1044562==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear David,
Max Brod, whom Kafka appointed his literary executor, reported that Kafka wrote the letter in November 1919, and gave it to his mother to pass on to his father. Apparently, she read it and did not pass it on to her husband but returned it to her son. Brod speculates that she knew her husband would have failed to respond, just as in your case.
I am so glad that you are enjoying the discussion. Yours, Ruth

At 09:54 AM 5/22/2004 +1000, you wrote:
Dear Ruth Wisse,
 
I have a question about Kafka. Was his letter to his father actually sent to his father? Did his father respond to it?
 
This is a matter of some interest to me as I wrote a long letter to my father and posted it to my cousin who lived in the same town. I posted it to my cousin as I didn't wish my mother to see the letter. I was taken aback some time later when my father wrote me and asked why I never wrote him. I pointed that I had written a long letter to which he never responded and asked if my cousin had given to him. He wrote that he didn't think it worth answering.
 
Thank you very much for this fascinating discussion. I am also reading your Peretz reader.
 
David Fisher
 
 
--=====================_1044562==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 22 18:30:10 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 13:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] fathers and sons Message-ID: <23301499.1085247010704.JavaMail.root@wamui05.slb.atl.earthlink.net>
Please indulge me in the following two paragraphs, and I'll ask a relevent question:
 
Maybe it's a generational affectation, this father-son rift, gulf, that seems common to men my age and older (I am 50).  I wrote my dad in early midlife too.  He responded with a phone call a couple of months later, passing all off good-humoredly and minimizing the deeper and aspects of our relationship.  He was evidently either not pained by them, or was content to leave the facade of 'us' standing in front of the wreckage of broken and even charred deeper structure that must have felt dangerous to explore.
 
At the very end of our conversation though he asked, "Did your mother tell you about me?".  I answered in a general way, for she'd never said anything surprising about him or their history before her untimely death.  He replied briefly but with some relief, and chose not to divulge whatever his secret was.  A few weeks later he had a stroke and became aphasic.  I've wondered at least in curiosity ever since, both that the nature of his secret and the timing of his stroke.
 
I know what I feel as a result, and see its motivating power in my writing, and in the need to write itself.
 
The question is: do we see these author's relationships with their fathers influencing their work, and even their motivation to write?  I can imagine a parallel between the writing subjects/styles and the generational evolution of Jewish family, of father-son relationship, specifically.
 
It's too large a subject for an email but the outline might be illustrative, and orient our reading sensitivities.  Being a mensch changes with our survey over time.   Surely Tevye was grounded in being a father and tradition, which doesn't exist for K.  Babel's reporter is sentimental about Jewishness and is a sensitive man, but survives by hiding both; there doesn't seem to be an archetype of aged but strong Jewish male present.  I'm guessing that Mr. Sammler has successfully subsumed his Jewish male identity in London's business and social culture; perhaps he has the relative luxury of reflecting on it.
 
Do any of the authors themselves have strong, effective father relationships, or ties to better defined Jewish male archetypes?  At this point I'd guess that our tradition is sorely lacking.  Most of the Jewish men I know live in an unmapped region between the two archetypal peaks of material success and rabbi, making do for Jewish identity with the small engraved donor medals attached to various synagogue furnishings.
 
Perhaps it's no accident that many male expressives are writers... it's a great way to work out the father-demons.
 
Elie Aharon
...who, if he is all wet here, would like to hear so.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ruth wisse
Sent: May 22, 2004 6:39 AM
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] offline

Dear David,
Max Brod, whom Kafka appointed his literary executor, reported that Kafka wrote the letter in November 1919, and gave it to his mother to pass on to his father...

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From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 23 05:33:36 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Philip Shulman) Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 21:33:36 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] fathers and sons In-Reply-To: <23301499.1085247010704.JavaMail.root@wamui05.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3168106417_2778797_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, Elie - Interesting, isn't it, how try as we might, we can't seem to get away from Kafka. I feel some reluctance, too, to move on from Kafka to Babel. Some unfinished business here, I suppose, but it may remain forever unfinished. Well, Elie, I don't want to say you are all wet, but only that my experience is different from yours. I had a pretty good father, not perfect by a long shot, but a good role model in many ways, a mensch full of much wisdom about life, much humour and kindliness, very caring, very concerned about fairness, public spirited, and whatever success I have had in life I owe to him, I think. And thinking about the fathers of my male friends and cousins, I think the same is more or less true of them. So I have to question the generalization that " our tradition is sorely lacking" - we have good fathers and bad fathers, of course, and plenty in between, but what the proportion of each is, I don't really know. Given the environmental stresses that afflicted our forefathers, I think by and large they did pretty well. I also know that some of my Gentile friends seem to perceive Jewish men as good family men, as compared, say, with Irish, Arab, German and other fathers. All generalizations are dubious, including this one, I suppose. As to "do we see these author's relationships with their fathers influencing their work, and even their motivation to write?" - how could it not be so? The desire to please a father, to help a father, to compete with a father, to rebel against a father - how common these are! I myself have felt them all. Freud said that the most important event in a man's life is the death of his father. Well, Oedipus, Shmedipus, as long as you love your father, that's how I see it. :-) So auf wiedersehen Kafka and Dobra-ye utra, Tovarich Babel. Best regards, Philip Shulman, who may be equally wet, maybe even moreso... on 5/22/04 10:30 AM, Elie Aharon at elie5764@peoplepc.com wrote: Please indulge me in the following two paragraphs, and I'll ask a relevent question: Maybe it's a generational affectation, this father-son rift, gulf, that seems common to men my age and older (I am 50). I wrote my dad in early midlife too. He responded with a phone call a couple of months later, passing all off good-humoredly and minimizing the deeper and aspects of our relationship. He was evidently either not pained by them, or was content to leave the facade of 'us' standing in front of the wreckage of broken and even charred deeper structure that must have felt dangerous to explore. At the very end of our conversation though he asked, "Did your mother tell you about me?". I answered in a general way, for she'd never said anything surprising about him or their history before her untimely death. He replied briefly but with some relief, and chose not to divulge whatever his secret was. A few weeks later he had a stroke and became aphasic. I've wondered at least in curiosity ever since, both that the nature of his secret and the timing of his stroke. I know what I feel as a result, and see its motivating power in my writing, and in the need to write itself. The question is: do we see these author's relationships with their fathers influencing their work, and even their motivation to write? I can imagine a parallel between the writing subjects/styles and the generational evolution of Jewish family, of father-son relationship, specifically. It's too large a subject for an email but the outline might be illustrative, and orient our reading sensitivities. Being a mensch changes with our survey over time. Surely Tevye was grounded in being a father and tradition, which doesn't exist for K. Babel's reporter is sentimental about Jewishness and is a sensitive man, but survives by hiding both; there doesn't seem to be an archetype of aged but strong Jewish male present. I'm guessing that Mr. Sammler has successfully subsumed his Jewish male identity in London's business and social culture; perhaps he has the relative luxury of reflecting on it. Do any of the authors themselves have strong, effective father relationships, or ties to better defined Jewish male archetypes? At this point I'd guess that our tradition is sorely lacking. Most of the Jewish men I know live in an unmapped region between the two archetypal peaks of material success and rabbi, making do for Jewish identity with the small engraved donor medals attached to various synagogue furnishings. Perhaps it's no accident that many male expressives are writers... it's a great way to work out the father-demons. Elie Aharon ...who, if he is all wet here, would like to hear so. -----Original Message----- From: ruth wisse Sent: May 22, 2004 6:39 AM To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] offline Dear David, Max Brod, whom Kafka appointed his literary executor, reported that Kafka wrote the letter in November 1919, and gave it to his mother to pass on to his father... ________________________________________ --MS_Mac_OE_3168106417_2778797_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable fathers and sons Hi, Elie -  Interesting, isn't it, how try as we might, we can't seem = to get away from Kafka. I feel some reluctance, too, to move on from Kafka t= o Babel. Some unfinished business here, I suppose, but it may remain forever= unfinished. Well, Elie, I don't want to say you are all wet, but only that = my experience is different from yours. I had a pretty good father, not perfe= ct by a long shot, but a good role model in many ways,  a mensch full o= f much wisdom about life,  much humour and kindliness, very caring, ver= y concerned about fairness, public spirited, and whatever success I have had= in life I owe to him, I think. And thinking about the fathers of my male fr= iends and cousins,  I think the same is more or less true of them. So I= have to question the generalization that " our tradition is sorely lac= king" - we have good fathers and bad fathers, of course,  and plen= ty in between, but what the proportion of each is, I don't really know. &nbs= p;Given the environmental stresses that afflicted our forefathers, I think b= y and large they did pretty well. I also know that some of my Gentile friend= s seem to perceive Jewish men as good family men, as compared, say, with Iri= sh, Arab, German and other fathers.  All generalizations are dubious, i= ncluding this one, I suppose. As to "do we see these author's relations= hips with their fathers influencing their work, and even their motivation to= write?" -  how could it not be so? The desire to please a father,=  to help a father, to compete with a father, to rebel against a father= - how common these are! I myself have felt them all. Freud said that the mo= st important event in a man's life is the death of his father. Well, Oedipus= , Shmedipus, as long as you love your father, that's how I see it. :-)  = ;So auf wiedersehen Kafka and Dobra-ye utr= a, Tovarich Babel.
Best regards,
            &n= bsp;     Philip Shulman, who may be equally wet, ma= ybe even moreso...          &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;      


on 5/22/04 10:30 AM, Elie Aharon at elie5764@peoplepc.com wrote:

Please indulge me in the following two paragraphs, and I'll ask= a relevent question:

Maybe it's a generational affectation, this father-son rift, gulf, that see= ms common to men my age and older (I am 50).  I wrote my dad in early m= idlife too.  He responded with a phone call a couple of months later, p= assing all off good-humoredly and minimizing the deeper and aspects of our r= elationship.  He was evidently either not pained by them, or was conten= t to leave the facade of 'us' standing in front of the wreckage of broken an= d even charred deeper structure that must have felt dangerous to explore.
At the very end of our conversation though he asked, "Did your mother = tell you about me?".  I answered in a general way, for she'd never= said anything surprising about him or their history before her untimely dea= th.  He replied briefly but with some relief, and chose not to divulge = whatever his secret was.  A few weeks later he had a stroke and became = aphasic.  I've wondered at least in curiosity ever since, both that the= nature of his secret and the timing of his stroke.

I know what I feel as a result, and see its motivating power in my writing,= and in the need to write itself.

The question is: do we see these author's relationships with their fathers = influencing their work, and even their motivation to write?  I can imag= ine a parallel between the writing subjects/styles and the generational evol= ution of Jewish family, of father-son relationship, specifically.

It's too large a subject for an email but the outline might be illustrative= , and orient our reading sensitivities.  Being a mensch changes with ou= r survey over time.   Surely Tevye was grounded in being a father = and tradition, which doesn't exist for K.  Babel's reporter is sentimen= tal about Jewishness and is a sensitive man, but survives by hiding both; th= ere doesn't seem to be an archetype of aged but strong Jewish male present. =  I'm guessing that Mr. Sammler has successfully subsumed his Jewish mal= e identity in London's business and social culture; perhaps he has the relat= ive luxury of reflecting on it.

Do any of the authors themselves have strong, effective father relationship= s, or ties to better defined Jewish male archetypes?  At this point I'd= guess that our tradition is sorely lacking.  Most of the Jewish men I = know live in an unmapped region between the two archetypal peaks of material= success and rabbi, making do for Jewish identity with the small engraved do= nor medals attached to various synagogue furnishings.

Perhaps it's no accident that many male expressives are writers... it's a g= reat way to work out the father-demons.

Elie Aharon
...who, if he is all wet here, would like to hear so.


-----Original Message-----
From: ruth wisse
Sent: May 22, 2004 6:39 AM
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org
Subject: Re: [NGFP-BookClub] offline

Dear David,
Max Brod, whom Kafka appointed his literary executor, reported that Kafka w= rote the letter in November 1919, and gave it to his mother to pass on to hi= s father...


________________________________________
--MS_Mac_OE_3168106417_2778797_MIME_Part-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 23 11:16:27 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 06:16:27 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Red Cavalry Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040523054637.00bd5a68@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_2831031==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My dear friends, Like many of you, I am often tempted to read books in relation to my own experience. Elie's reflections about fathers and sons are fascinating in themselves, and an important thread in some of the books on this small course. But I wouldn't like the informality of our discussion to overtake the main goal of reading, really and truly reading a few extraordinary books. Perhaps we could address personal reflections at the end of the series--after we've given the books their due. The compression of Babel's style presents many challenges. I'd encourage everyone to ask questions about any aspects of these stories that need explaining. Now with search engines, one can get information about items like Cossacks, Lenin, the 1920 Polish-Russian war, etc. But there are peculiarities of this work that can't be accessed through any search engine. Each story is complete in itself. They join together as in a rope of pearls. The narrator doesn't connect the stories for us--he doesn't even tell us when the speaker is someone other than himself. Yet obviously the details of one story carry over to the others. Each of the works we've read so far is episodic in a similar way. But here, in Red Cavalry, the gaps between episodes are sharper, and no attempt is made to provide continuity. --=====================_2831031==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" My dear friends,
Like many of you, I am often tempted to read books in relation to my own experience. Elie's reflections about fathers and sons are fascinating in themselves, and an important thread in some of the books on this small course. But I wouldn't like the informality of our discussion to overtake the main goal of reading, really and truly reading a few extraordinary books. Perhaps we could address personal reflections at the end of the series--after we've given the books their due.
The compression of Babel's style presents many challenges. I'd encourage everyone to ask questions about any aspects of these stories that need explaining. Now with search engines, one can get information about items like Cossacks, Lenin, the 1920 Polish-Russian war, etc. But there are peculiarities of this work that can't be accessed through any search engine.
Each story is complete in itself. They join together as in a rope of pearls. The narrator doesn't connect the stories for us--he doesn't even tell us when the speaker is someone other than himself. Yet obviously the details of one story carry over to the others.
Each of the works we've read so far is episodic in a similar way. But here, in Red Cavalry, the gaps between episodes are sharper, and no attempt is made to provide continuity.
  --=====================_2831031==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 29 00:15:51 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 19:15:51 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528181012.023958c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Here we all were in a lively international discussion, and suddenly--a falling off of voices. Poor Babel in his untimely grave! I wonder what accounts for your silence. Perhaps some of you were unable to get hold of the book. Perhaps some of you don't know what to make of the stories. Since this is not a shy group, I don't suppose you are waiting for someone to break the ice, but I would so like to hear what you think of the stories of Red Cavalry--particularly if you have not read them before, and are a little frightened by their intensity. Let me share at least one thought about the first story, which has been written about in fascinating detail by many scholars. The narrator is crossing into war as part of a large armed force. The Red Army is on the offensive, and the soldiers requisition whatever they need from the civilians in their path. The narrator (whose name and identity we don't yet know) happens to come on a Jewish family, which is not at all unusual in those parts. The family has just been pogromized by the Poles who have retreated because of the Red Army attack. We know this because of the way the house has been savaged, and we suspect the narrator must be Jewish because otherwise, how would he know that the broken crockery on the floor has anything to so with Passover? ....At the end of the story, it is revealed--in so very few words!--that the sleeping man is dead, who he is, and how he came to be murdered. Here is a hero of an entirely unexpected kind--not the kind of soldier who is crossing into war, but a "warrior" of a different culture. Maybe this is unfair of me--but think of this man as Tevye, for the family situation is also that of a daughter and father. See how radically the attitude toward this family has changed in Babel's post-Revolution story. Yet I do think that this dead man is presented as an unlikely hero, in the most surprising way imaginable. Babel is a powerful writer. I hope you have been able to read him. I am writing this erev Shabbat, so gut shabbes everyone. Ruth From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 29 05:19:02 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (David FISHER) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 14:19:02 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528181012.023958c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <000601c44534$17c9e5e0$e43932d2@dmfw0001> > Here we all were in a lively international discussion, and suddenly--a > falling off of voices. Poor Babel in his untimely grave! I wonder what > accounts for your silence. Perhaps some of you were unable to get hold of > the book. Dear Ruth Wisse, Maybe some of us are in timely graves. I have a book of stories by Babel titled "You Must Know Everyuthing." In it there is no story titled "Red Cavalry." However, there is a section titled "Observations on War." May we comment on these? -David Fisher From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 29 07:02:19 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Elie Aharon) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 02:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? Message-ID: <27881367.1085810540040.JavaMail.root@wamui01.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Lyutov, the reporter, observes with depth and clarity that sets him apart from and lifts him above his subjects. This is not merely a skill he invokes, but part of who he authentically is. His is a gifted and compassionate eye, powerfully expressed and a joy to read. Yet he writes with an immediacy that binds both himself and his subjects in their all too human condition. Though all are subject to the events of their time, he consistantly rises above those events and draws from both the more sordid details and the overarching skies to express an ongoing drama that is as large and ongoing as life itself. In the evocative details: "a pregnant woman... ransacked closets... pieces of fur coats... human excrement... and fragments of the holy Seder plate..." And the cathedral in which all this takes place: "fields of purple... pearly white fog... ravines of the clouds... banners of sunset... glistening hollows and the snaking moon..." ...all from just the first few pages of the first story. Unlike our Tevye, Lyutov gets out of his own way and above all else, expresses. Whether this is a result of personality, environment or education is unknown to me. And he, the reporter, knows he is seeing and writing with this eye; sees himself writing and includes the necessary official line, but only as a vehicle to get out what is larger and more true. I think of the symphonies of Shostakovich and the works of Prokofiev, and their inner musical ciphers that made political statements, but as integral part of the great works. Though I believe Bable is earlier in time, he's in the same tradition. A question: It's tempting to read the stories with an eye to translating the details, which are so carefully selected yet skillfully woven. In the first story: is the pregnancy a political comment, along with the pieces of more sumptuous coats and the broken seder plate? Elie -----Original Message----- From: ruth wisse Sent: May 28, 2004 6:15 PM To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? Here we all were in a lively international discussion, and suddenly--a falling off of voices. Poor Babel in his untimely grave! I wonder what accounts for your silence. Perhaps some of you were unable to get hold of the book. Perhaps some of you don't know what to make of the stories. Since this is not a shy group, I don't suppose you are waiting for someone to break the ice, but I would so like to hear what you think of the stories of Red Cavalry--particularly if you have not read them before, and are a little frightened by their intensity. Let me share at least one thought about the first story, which has been written about in fascinating detail by many scholars. The narrator is crossing into war as part of a large armed force. The Red Army is on the offensive, and the soldiers requisition whatever they need from the civilians in their path. The narrator (whose name and identity we don't yet know) happens to come on a Jewish family, which is not at all unusual in those parts. The family has just been pogromized by the Poles who have retreated because of the Red Army attack. We know this because of the way the house has been savaged, and we suspect the narrator must be Jewish because otherwise, how would he know that the broken crockery on the floor has anything to so with Passover? ....At the end of the story, it is revealed--in so very few words!--that the sleeping man is dead, who he is, and how he came to be murdered. Here is a hero of an entirely unexpected kind--not the kind of soldier who is crossing into war, but a "warrior" of a different culture. Maybe this is unfair of me--but think of this man as Tevye, for the family situation is also that of a daughter and father. See how radically the attitude toward this family has changed in Babel's post-Revolution story. Yet I do think that this dead man is presented as an unlikely hero, in the most surprising way imaginable. Babel is a powerful writer. I hope you have been able to read him. I am writing this erev Shabbat, so gut shabbes everyone. Ruth ________________________________________________ NGFP-BookClub mailing list NGFP-BookClub@lists.ngfp.org http://lists.ngfp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ngfp-bookclub Nahum Goldmann Fellowship Online http://members.ngfp.org/ Jewish Heritage Online Magazine http://www.jhom.com/ Judaica e-greeting cards http://cards.jhom.com/ ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 29 13:56:42 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barry) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:56:42 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? Message-ID: <913BA31F7224D411BF3000D0B74D59CB21F31D@SERVER1> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4457C.63785BF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I can't speak for anyone else but I am silent because I am still not sure what I make of it all (and I am also a little diverted by Shavuot - chag smeach to all). I do not want to rush reading all these stories. Yes, I ought to read them swiftly to get an overview to make informed comment, but each story is a vignette to be savoured. It is not an instalment in a story where you rush on to find out what will happen next. And if you rush with these stories, you miss things. Sometimes I don't know even who the narrator is until well into the story. Much that is known to the narrator is initially hidden from the reader and is slowly revealed as we read on. I am fairly fast reader and could read Shalom Aleichem and Kafka with reasonable speed. I need to read Babel with greater care because I will miss a clue about the who and the what and the where of the story. This may well be partly unintentional and the result of my own unfamiliarity with the period and the campaign, but it is also partly intentional. In the first story, we only learn what it is about at the end when "all is revealed", and the shock and the impact are all the greater. Although the time and place should be familiar, they are not. I have read about later times when the Russian Revolution had settled down into its more repressive phase, but this seems to be an unusual and chaotic time when the revolutionary outcome was as yet unformed and optimistic idealism went hand in hand with bloody war. You might say that is not so unusual. After all, Al qaeda and suicide bombers are very much about (misplaced) passionate idealism and bloody war, but somehow I cannot feel the parallel. I am surprised that Babel the journalist is able to introduce so much jewishness into these pieces that he appears to be writing for a mainstream publication. It is surely clear to all that he is Jewish. He doesn't say so expressly (or not yet in my reading) but it must be obvious from the way that he gives prominence to "Jewish incidents" in a way that a gentile writer would not. Could it be that this was a time when it was actually OK to be Jewish? The pieces remind me that there were many Jews involved in the revolution - because any enemy of the Tsars must be friend of ours? I think of the woman who complains that this is not her revolution, it is revolution for the Jews because they are prominent in it (and of Tevye who loses a daughter to the revolution). How rapidly things changed, or at least changed for those who continued to identify as Jewish. So Ruth, I hope that you will allow us a little more time to savour these stories. Otherwise I don't know how I can keep up with you. Barry Abrahamson ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4457C.63785BF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence?

I can't speak for anyone else but I am silent = because I am still not sure what I make of it all (and I am also a = little diverted by Shavuot - chag smeach to all).  I do not want = to rush reading all these stories.  Yes, I ought to read them = swiftly to get an overview to make informed comment, but each story is = a vignette to be savoured.  It is not an instalment in a story = where you rush on to find out what will happen next.  And if you = rush with these  stories, you miss things.  Sometimes I don't = know even who the narrator is until well into the story.

Much that is known to the narrator is initially = hidden from the reader and is slowly revealed as we read on.  I am = fairly fast reader and could read Shalom Aleichem and Kafka with = reasonable speed.  I need to read Babel with greater care because = I will miss a clue about the who and the what and the where of the = story.  This may well be partly unintentional and the result of my = own unfamiliarity with the period and the campaign, but it is also = partly intentional.    In the first story, we only learn = what it is about at the end when "all is revealed", and the = shock and the impact are all the greater.

Although the time and place should be familiar, = they are not.  I have read about later times when the Russian = Revolution had settled down into its more repressive phase, but this = seems to be an unusual and chaotic time when the revolutionary outcome = was as yet unformed and optimistic idealism went hand in hand with = bloody war. 

You might say that is not so unusual.  = After all, Al qaeda and suicide bombers are very much about (misplaced) = passionate idealism and bloody war, but somehow I cannot feel the = parallel.

I am surprised that Babel the journalist is = able to introduce so much jewishness into these pieces that he appears = to be writing for a mainstream publication.  It is surely clear to = all that he is Jewish.  He doesn't say so expressly (or not yet in = my reading) but it must be obvious from the way that he gives = prominence to "Jewish incidents" in a way that a gentile writer would = not.  Could it be that this was a time when it was actually OK to = be Jewish?

The pieces remind me that there were many Jews = involved in the revolution - because any enemy of the Tsars must be = friend of ours?  I think of the woman who complains that this is = not her revolution, it is revolution for the Jews because they are = prominent in it (and of Tevye who loses a daughter to the = revolution).  How rapidly things changed, or at least changed for = those who continued to identify as Jewish.

So Ruth, I hope that you will allow us a little = more time to savour these stories.  Otherwise I don't know how I = can keep up with you.

Barry Abrahamson

------_=_NextPart_001_01C4457C.63785BF0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 29 18:07:48 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Marion Dill) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 18:07:48 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528181012.023958c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: shabat shalom ve shavu'a tov! I've followed the discussion with great interest so far although I haven't contributed anything. Got behind with the reading as well and only started on the Red Army yesterday :-( As Ruth points out, it's incredibly powerful and makes for a magnetic read; I'm intrigued by the sheer 'animalism' behind the words and will go back to reading now. Thanks for putting this book on the list. Marion From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sat May 29 21:18:30 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 16:18:30 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528181012.023958c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <40B8F016.4000308@xs4all.nl> --------------010508000905070207020002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ruth and everyone, Of course I can only speak for myself, so here is my story: there were two reasons I wanted to participate in this course. The first one was that Ruth would be our teacher. I had the good fortune to attend a workshop lead by Ruth while at the Nachum Goldman Fellowship seminar in 1991, and I have been a fan ever since, even though we didn't always agree on everything. My second reason was that I saw that Babel was on the reading list. I have wanted to read Babel as long as I can remember, but for some reason I never got around to it. So now I am reading Red Cavalry, the only book on the list that I hadn't read already, and enjoying it very much. Babel is an incredible writer, his language, his imagery is so vivid, it is pure joy to read it. The story Ruth refers to is stomach turning, precisely because Babel's style of telling it is so matter-of-fact. It feels like actually walking into a house that had just been ransacked. Moreover, the narrator is tired and grungy, so he acts less than civil in telling people he meets there to clean up the mess, knowing full well what had caused it, which makes his story even more chilling. I don't see even remotely a connection with the Tevye story. Sholem Aleichem is a humorist, Babel is what we would describe as a 'new journalist', someone who combines literary talent with good reporting. Babels protagonists are usually not naive at all. The people the narrator meets in the house in the first story are just victims of a horrendous crime. What the daughter tells about the attack, confirms the traditional Eastern European Jewish self image: that Jews, though defenseless, are incomparably more civilized, ethical beings than Poles and the like. We, on the other hand, know now that this assumed moral high ground had more to do with actually being defenseless than with anything inherently Jewish. Whether we like to admit it or not, we all know that Israel has in the past, and also now, committed morally indefensible acts. So we know that Jews under circumstances, if they have the power to do so, can act as inhumanely as everyone else. Yes, the father in an incredible mentsh, to think of his daughter under those circumstances. When you are powerless, dignity is the only thing you have left to protect your humanity. But is he a soldier? No, I don't think so. He didn't want to fight, he just wanted to be left alone and see his grandchild be born (the daughter was pregnant). Is he a hero in this way? Yes, I think so. Is he a Jewish hero? I don't know. Shavuah Tov, Manja --------------010508000905070207020002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ruth and everyone,
Of course I can only speak for myself, so here is my story: there were two reasons I wanted to participate in this course. The first one was that Ruth would be our teacher. I had the good fortune to attend a workshop lead by Ruth while at the Nachum Goldman Fellowship seminar in 1991, and I have been a fan ever since, even though we didn't always agree on everything. My second reason was that I saw that Babel was on the reading list. I have wanted to read Babel as long as I can remember, but for some reason I never got around to it. So now I am reading Red Cavalry, the only book on the list that I hadn't read already, and enjoying it very much. Babel is an incredible writer, his language, his imagery is so vivid, it is pure joy to read it.

The story Ruth refers to is stomach turning, precisely because Babel's style of telling it is so matter-of-fact. It feels like actually walking into a house that had just been ransacked. Moreover, the narrator is tired and grungy, so he acts less than civil in telling people he meets there to clean up the mess, knowing full well what had caused it, which makes his story even more chilling.

I don't see even remotely a connection with the Tevye story. Sholem Aleichem is a humorist, Babel is what we would describe as a 'new journalist', someone who combines literary talent with good reporting. Babels protagonists are usually not naive at all. The people the narrator meets in the house in the first story are just victims of a horrendous crime. What the daughter tells about the attack, confirms the traditional Eastern European Jewish self image: that Jews, though defenseless, are incomparably more civilized, ethical beings than Poles and the like. We, on the other hand, know now that this assumed moral high ground had more to do with actually being defenseless than with anything inherently Jewish. Whether we like to admit it or not, we all know that Israel has in the past, and also now, committed morally indefensible acts. So we know that Jews under circumstances, if they have the power to do so, can act as inhumanely as everyone else.

Yes, the father in an incredible mentsh, to think of his daughter under those circumstances. When you are powerless, dignity is the only thing you have left to protect your humanity. But is he a soldier? No, I don't think so. He didn't want to fight, he just wanted to be left alone and see his grandchild be born (the daughter was pregnant). Is he a hero in this way? Yes, I think so. Is he a Jewish hero? I don't know.
Shavuah Tov,
Manja
--------------010508000905070207020002-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 30 13:59:25 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Avril Alba) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:59:25 +1000 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528181012.023958c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> <40B8F016.4000308@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <003301c44645$f0e9fa10$6924a4cb@Sydney> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C44699.C0E1CA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Manja writes: "I don't see even remotely a connection with the Tevye story. Sholem = Aleichem is a humorist, Babel is what we would describe as a 'new = journalist', someone who combines literary talent with good reporting. = Babels protagonists are usually not naive at all." While I understand the distinction that Manja is making between the = styles of the two writers, I think that the connection Ruth points to = between the two stories provides an interesting 'historical' point of = departure. Babel's struggle (through the prism of his narrator Lyutov) = seems to me to be one of the possible conclusions of Tevye's experiences = (or the experience of Russian Jews in general). For example, if we think = back to Hodel's story--what may have become of her and Ferfl after the = Revolution? Do we assume Ferfl is freed from prison and placed perhaps = in a similar position to Lyutov? Will he become the morally conflicted = supporter of a regime that is slowly destroying the culture and people = that formed him and indeed, may have originally nurtured within him his = 'utopic' disposition? While I admit this is conjecture, I wonder if conjecture itself is one = of the reasons that Babel is difficult to read and even more difficult = to contemplate. Post Second World War, we tend to know much about the = experience of those who suffered directly under the Nazi regime. Due to = the nature of Soviet repression and its more often than not brutal = censorship, it feels that we have only begun the enormous task of = understanding the experience of Jews living throughout the Soviet = period. Babel is difficult because with the onset of the Soviet era = information about the experience of minorities under this regime was = circumscribed and largely lost to a Western audience. We know the Shtetl = Jew--do we really know the Soviet Jew? Perhaps this is what is most disturbing about Babel. To me Lyutov's = character is most chilling in that I am never certain that his = Jewishness will triumph or even survive. And while Ruth rightly points = out that Lyutov carries Babel's "burdened conscience" throughout the = Cavalry stories, the trepidation one feels throughout these stories is = that Communist ideology will triumph if not ultimately politically (as = the breakdown of the Soviet Union attested), then in its perverse = ability to destroy cultural/religious identity. Lyutov may survive with = his conscience intact but with not much else to distinguish him. When = considering the complex and often fragmented identity of former Soviet = Jews now living in Israel or Western countries, Lyutov's struggle seems = eerily prophetic. On a more personal note: As the daughter of a survivor of both the Nazi = and Stalinist regimes born in the very areas that Babel describes (my = father was born in Rovno, living there under both Polish and then Soviet = rule until the Nazi invasion in 1941), the Red Cavalry series also sheds = great light on the political attitudes among the Jewish populations of = which my father often spoke. Considering the regularity and barbarity of = the pogroms against the Jewish civilian populations by Cossacks, Poles = and then the Soviets, it is small wonder that many Jews did not want to = believe the reports of Nazi atrocities in the West--preferring to see = the Germans as yet another 'occupying force'. Babel feels to me to be the most brutally honest of our writers so far = in his portrayal of European Jewry. Perhaps what is most disquieting is = his absolute refusal to retreat into nostalgia. And while Babel's = realism may cause Shklovsky to turn away in shame, it feels that for = those who continue to look, Babel might provide profound insight into a = Jewish experience that we are still struggling to comprehend. --Avril Alba ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C44699.C0E1CA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Manja writes:

"I don't see even remotely a connection with the Tevye story. = Sholem=20 Aleichem is a humorist, Babel is what we would describe as a 'new = journalist',=20 someone who combines literary talent with good reporting. Babels = protagonists=20 are usually not naive at all."
 
While I understand the distinction that Manja is making between the = styles=20 of the two writers, I think that the connection Ruth points to between = the two=20 stories provides an interesting 'historical' point of departure. Babel's = struggle (through the prism of his narrator Lyutov) seems to me to=20 be one of the possible conclusions of Tevye's experiences (or the=20 experience of Russian Jews in general). For example, if we think back to = Hodel's=20 story--what may have become of her and Ferfl after the Revolution? Do we = assume=20 Ferfl is freed from prison and placed perhaps in a similar position to = Lyutov?=20 Will he become the morally conflicted supporter of a regime that is = slowly=20 destroying the culture and people that formed him and indeed, may = have=20 originally nurtured within him his 'utopic' disposition?
 
While I admit this is conjecture, I wonder if conjecture itself is = one of=20 the reasons that Babel is difficult to read and even more difficult to=20 contemplate. Post Second World War, we tend to know much about the = experience of=20 those who suffered directly under the Nazi regime. Due to the nature of = Soviet=20 repression and its more often than not brutal censorship, it feels that = we have=20 only begun the enormous task of understanding the experience of Jews = living=20 throughout the Soviet period. Babel is difficult because with the onset = of the=20 Soviet era information about the experience of minorities under this = regime was=20 circumscribed and largely lost to a Western audience. We know the Shtetl = Jew--do=20 we really know the Soviet Jew?
 
Perhaps this is what is most disturbing about Babel. To me = Lyutov's=20 character is most chilling in that I am never certain that his = Jewishness=20 will triumph or even survive. And while Ruth rightly points out that = Lyutov=20 carries Babel's "burdened conscience" throughout the Cavalry stories, = the=20 trepidation one feels throughout these stories is that Communist=20 ideology will triumph if not ultimately politically (as the = breakdown of=20 the Soviet Union attested), then in its perverse ability to destroy=20 cultural/religious identity. Lyutov may survive with his conscience = intact but=20 with not much else to distinguish him. When considering the complex and = often=20 fragmented identity of former Soviet Jews now living in Israel = or=20 Western countries, Lyutov's struggle seems eerily prophetic.
 
On a more personal note: As the daughter of a survivor of = both the=20 Nazi and Stalinist regimes born in the very areas that Babel describes = (my=20 father was born in Rovno, living there under both Polish and then Soviet = rule=20 until the Nazi invasion in 1941), the Red Cavalry series also sheds = great=20 light on the political attitudes among the Jewish populations of which = my father=20 often spoke. Considering the regularity and barbarity of the pogroms = against the=20 Jewish civilian populations by Cossacks, Poles and then the Soviets, it = is small=20 wonder that many Jews did not want to believe the reports of Nazi = atrocities in=20 the West--preferring to see the Germans as yet another 'occupying = force'.
 
Babel feels to me to be the most brutally honest of our writers so = far in=20 his portrayal of European Jewry. Perhaps what is most disquieting is his = absolute refusal to retreat into nostalgia. And while Babel's realism = may cause=20 Shklovsky to turn away in shame, it feels that for those who continue to = look,=20 Babel might provide profound insight into a Jewish experience that we = are still=20 struggling to comprehend.
 
--Avril Alba
 
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C44699.C0E1CA60-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 30 18:40:56 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (ruth wisse) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 13:40:56 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] reading babel Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040530130538.00b4b410@imap.fas.harvard.edu> --=====================_5024734==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I appreciate all your comments about reading Babel. Barry is certainly right about the time it takes to savor these stories, Elie about the depth and clarity that sets him apart from his subjects, Marion about the energy. One of the questions that arises in trying to construct a body of "Jewish" literature from works written in various languages is whether there is any organic connection among the writers. In the case of Babel and Sholem Aleichem, we know there was. In the 1930s, when Babel was not able to write freely because of Soviet censorship, he found work editing the collection of Sholem Aleichem in Russian. We can be sure that he had read this author from childhood. Manya points out the great contrast rather than similarity in their styles, but I'm grateful to Avril for making the historical connection between them, because Babel's style is at least in part a literary response, or reaction to Sholem Aleichem. He was fully conscious of how much had changed, how the times required a new literary approach, and that he was writing for a new audience. As Avril writes, Sholem Aleichem presented Feferl--Peppercorn--in all his innocence. By contrast, Babel presents the revolutionary Jew having to recognize the consequence of his actions. The murdered father in the first story is no longer on the scene--only his reputation lingers in the mind of his daughter. The Jewish kind of heroism is not going to be admired by the new Bolshevik culture, but Lyutov allows us to hear this posthumous tribute. Yes, as Barry intuits, it was possible to write openly as a Jew, or, at least, that is a freedom that Babel claimed. I would go even further. It seems to me that Babel felt no one better than a Jew could prove that the Revolution had actually worked. True, the Jews living in the territories claimed by Poland were still as vulnerable as ever to brutality and mistreatment, but someone like him, who was prepared to identify with the new Communist regime, could testify truthfully to what was going on at the front--testify truthfully about the Jews and everything else as well. Lyutov's freedom to reveal everything was the proof of how much had changed since the times of the tsars. Yet Babel obviously knows that the Revolution has come at a terrible moral price, and that the price will be felt by the Jews first and foremost. Look at the story sequence of "Gedali" and "My First Goose," and "The Rebbe" to see how he broaches the problem of the moral cost of the Revolution. The Jew has been allowed to ride with the Cossacks--it is political victory. (Better than being killed by the Cossacks, which had been their fate before.) But is the price of this improvement worth it? That's the question Gedali poses. Already in the first story, the narrator Lyutov, has a guilty dream. The dream is about betrayal. Is it clear from the dream who is being betrayed and who is the betrayer? --=====================_5024734==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I appreciate all your comments about reading Babel. Barry is certainly right about the time it takes to savor these stories, Elie about the depth and clarity that sets him apart from his subjects, Marion about the energy. One of the questions that arises in trying to construct a body of "Jewish" literature from works written in various languages is whether there is any organic connection among the writers. In the case of Babel and Sholem Aleichem, we know there was. In the 1930s, when Babel was not able to write freely because of Soviet censorship, he found work editing the collection of Sholem Aleichem in Russian. We can be sure that he had read this author from childhood. Manya points out the great contrast rather than similarity in their styles, but I'm grateful to Avril for making the historical connection between them, because Babel's style is at least in part a literary response, or reaction to Sholem Aleichem. He was fully conscious of how much had changed, how the times required a new literary approach, and that he was writing for a new audience. 
As Avril writes, Sholem Aleichem presented Feferl--Peppercorn--in all his innocence. By contrast, Babel presents the revolutionary Jew having to recognize the consequence of his actions. The murdered father in the first story is no longer on the scene--only his reputation lingers in the mind of his daughter. The Jewish kind of heroism is not going to be admired by the new Bolshevik culture, but Lyutov allows us to hear this posthumous tribute. 

Yes, as Barry intuits, it was possible to write openly as a Jew, or, at least, that is a freedom that Babel claimed. I would go even further. It seems to me that Babel felt no one better than a Jew could prove that the Revolution had actually worked. True, the Jews living in the territories claimed by Poland were still as vulnerable as ever to brutality and mistreatment, but someone like him, who was prepared to identify with the new Communist regime, could testify truthfully to what was going on at the front--testify truthfully about the Jews and everything else as well. Lyutov's freedom to reveal everything was the proof of how much had changed since the times of the tsars.
Yet Babel obviously knows that the Revolution has come at a terrible moral price, and that the price will be felt by the Jews first and foremost. Look at the story sequence of "Gedali" and "My First Goose," and "The Rebbe" to see how he broaches the problem of the moral cost of the Revolution. The Jew has been allowed to ride with the Cossacks--it is political victory. (Better than being killed by the Cossacks, which had been their fate before.) But is the price of this improvement worth it? That's the question Gedali poses.

Already in the first story, the narrator Lyutov, has a guilty dream. The dream is about betrayal. Is it clear from the dream who is being betrayed and who is the betrayer? 

--=====================_5024734==_.ALT-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Sun May 30 19:53:53 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Barbara S. Cohen) Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 11:53:53 -0700 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] How to account for the silence? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040528181012.023958c0@imap.fas.harvard.edu> <40B8F016.4000308@xs4all.nl> <003301c44645$f0e9fa10$6924a4cb@Sydney> Message-ID: <001c01c44677$74681fd0$6c02a8c0@isaac> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4463C.C7F15300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We know the Stetl Jews, but do we really know the Soviet Jews? Having read, The Red Cavalayfor the first time last year, I was = amazed and curious as to why Babel's works had not been read by me. He = deals with subjects that I deeply love: Russia and Jewish or being a Jew = in Russia. His stories, although short, are quite complex, the writing = elequent and complex. As the introduction suggests, Babel loves to focus = on connecting opposites: Jews with Cossacks, Russians with Poles modern = society with tradition. (such as in the story of 'Gedali' where he = describes how his old grandmother waved spells over the Sabbath candle = with her gnarled fingers, and sobbed sweetly." Such beautiful poetry and = imagery jumps from the page. Unlike Kafka who writes about complex = matters in simple terms, Babel writes about complex matters in complex = terms, making the meaning of each story difficult to understand and = digest with perhaps one reading. Now I am going to re-read this same story, 'Gedali" with the question = I posed at the beginning being in clear vision, that is whether we know = the Russian Jews. Barbara S. Cohen ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4463C.C7F15300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
We know the Stetl Jews, but do we = really know the=20 Soviet Jews?
 
    Having read, = The Red=20 Cavalayfor the first time last year, I was amazed and curious as = to why=20 Babel's works had not been read by me. He deals with subjects that I = deeply=20 love: Russia and Jewish or being a Jew in Russia. His stories, = although short,=20 are quite complex, the writing elequent and complex. As the = introduction=20 suggests, Babel loves to focus on connecting opposites: Jews with = Cossacks,=20 Russians with Poles modern society with = tradition. (such as in=20 the story of 'Gedali' where he describes how his old grandmother waved = spells=20 over the Sabbath candle with her gnarled fingers, and sobbed sweetly." = Such=20 beautiful poetry and imagery jumps from the page. Unlike Kafka who = writes=20 about complex matters in simple terms, Babel writes about complex = matters in=20 complex terms, making the meaning of each story difficult to = understand and=20 digest with perhaps one reading.
 
Now I am going to re-read this same = story,=20 'Gedali" with the question I posed at the beginning being in clear = vision,=20 that is whether we know the Russian Jews.

Barbara S.=20 Cohen
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C4463C.C7F15300-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 31 07:29:56 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Marion Dill) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 07:29:56 +0100 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] reading babel In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040530130538.00b4b410@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3168833397_206622 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable boker tov,=20 To me, it=B9s not quite clear yet who is betraying whom in the dream: is the dream a metaphor for a Cossack riding in the regiment, fighting for the Revolution although the Cossacks were the instrument of Tsarist repression? Is it betraying being a Jew by pretending to be a Cossack? I=B9m looking at the word =8Cnakh=B9 and all that comes to mind is the adjective =8Cresting=B9. Marion --B_3168833397_206622 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [NGFP-BookClub] reading babel boker tov,

To me, it’s not quite clear yet who is betraying whom in the dream: i= s the dream a metaphor for a Cossack riding in the regiment, fighting for th= e Revolution although the Cossacks were the instrument of Tsarist repression= ? Is it betraying being a Jew by pretending to be a Cossack? I’m looki= ng at the word ‘nakh’ and all that comes to mind is the adjectiv= e ‘resting’.

Marion    --B_3168833397_206622-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 31 13:59:28 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Rivka Kurs) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:59:28 +0200 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] reading babel References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040530130538.00b4b410@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <001d01c4470f$1b7747a0$3fd5a652@RivkaKurs> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4471F.DED6E4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About Gedali: Babel gives us a "logic" meant to uncover the hopelessly = illogical way of looking at human behaviour. Can we say yes to the = Revolution and yes to the Counter-Revolution based on any kind of Logic? = If the Revolution means joy, it must be a 'good' and not a 'bad'. Good = men do good deeds, then it follows that bad men do bad deeds?This is the = faint odour of corruption which eminates from the bottle overturned up = there. Logic is another corruption so fervently held by many thinkers. = The world isn't logical ,is it?=20 Bad men do good deeds occasionally and good men do bad deeds = occasionally. The occasion is a random event and not at all = predictable. So we can only select according to the event with little = certainty about causes. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ruth wisse=20 To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org=20 Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 7:40 PM Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] reading babel I appreciate all your comments about reading Babel. Barry is certainly = right about the time it takes to savor these stories, Elie about the = depth and clarity that sets him apart from his subjects, Marion about = the energy. One of the questions that arises in trying to construct a = body of "Jewish" literature from works written in various languages is = whether there is any organic connection among the writers. In the case = of Babel and Sholem Aleichem, we know there was. In the 1930s, when = Babel was not able to write freely because of Soviet censorship, he = found work editing the collection of Sholem Aleichem in Russian. We can = be sure that he had read this author from childhood. Manya points out = the great contrast rather than similarity in their styles, but I'm = grateful to Avril for making the historical connection between them, = because Babel's style is at least in part a literary response, or = reaction to Sholem Aleichem. He was fully conscious of how much had = changed, how the times required a new literary approach, and that he was = writing for a new audience. =20 As Avril writes, Sholem Aleichem presented Feferl--Peppercorn--in all = his innocence. By contrast, Babel presents the revolutionary Jew having = to recognize the consequence of his actions. The murdered father in the = first story is no longer on the scene--only his reputation lingers in = the mind of his daughter. The Jewish kind of heroism is not going to be = admired by the new Bolshevik culture, but Lyutov allows us to hear this = posthumous tribute. =20 Yes, as Barry intuits, it was possible to write openly as a Jew, or, = at least, that is a freedom that Babel claimed. I would go even further. = It seems to me that Babel felt no one better than a Jew could prove that = the Revolution had actually worked. True, the Jews living in the = territories claimed by Poland were still as vulnerable as ever to = brutality and mistreatment, but someone like him, who was prepared to = identify with the new Communist regime, could testify truthfully to what = was going on at the front--testify truthfully about the Jews and = everything else as well. Lyutov's freedom to reveal everything was the = proof of how much had changed since the times of the tsars.=20 Yet Babel obviously knows that the Revolution has come at a terrible = moral price, and that the price will be felt by the Jews first and = foremost. Look at the story sequence of "Gedali" and "My First Goose," = and "The Rebbe" to see how he broaches the problem of the moral cost of = the Revolution. The Jew has been allowed to ride with the Cossacks--it = is political victory. (Better than being killed by the Cossacks, which = had been their fate before.) But is the price of this improvement worth = it? That's the question Gedali poses.=20 Already in the first story, the narrator Lyutov, has a guilty dream. = The dream is about betrayal. Is it clear from the dream who is being = betrayed and who is the betrayer? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4471F.DED6E4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
About Gedali: Babel gives us a "logic" = meant to=20 uncover the hopelessly illogical way of looking at human behaviour. Can = we say=20 yes to the Revolution and yes to the Counter-Revolution based on any = kind of=20 Logic?  If the Revolution means joy, it must be a 'good' and not a = 'bad'.=20 Good men do good deeds, then it follows that bad men do bad deeds?This = is the=20 faint odour of corruption which eminates from the bottle overturned up = there.=20 Logic is another corruption so fervently held by many thinkers. The = world isn't=20 logical ,is it?
Bad men do good deeds occasionally and = good men do=20 bad deeds occasionally. The occasion is a random event and  not at = all=20 predictable.  So we can only select according to the event with = little=20 certainty about causes.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ruth=20 wisse
To: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org =
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 7:40 = PM
Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] = reading=20 babel

I appreciate all your comments about reading Babel. = Barry is=20 certainly right about the time it takes to savor these stories, Elie = about the=20 depth and clarity that sets him apart from his subjects, Marion about = the=20 energy. One of the questions that arises in trying to construct a body = of=20 "Jewish" literature from works written in various languages is whether = there=20 is any organic connection among the writers. In the case of Babel and = Sholem=20 Aleichem, we know there was. In the 1930s, when Babel was not able to = write=20 freely because of Soviet censorship, he found work editing the = collection of=20 Sholem Aleichem in Russian. We can be sure that he had read this = author from=20 childhood. Manya points out the great contrast rather than similarity = in their=20 styles, but I'm grateful to Avril for making the historical connection = between=20 them, because Babel's style is at least in part a literary response, = or=20 reaction to Sholem Aleichem. He was fully conscious of how much had = changed,=20 how the times required a new literary approach, and that he was = writing for a=20 new audience. 
As Avril writes, Sholem Aleichem presented=20 Feferl--Peppercorn--in all his innocence. By contrast, Babel presents = the=20 revolutionary Jew having to recognize the consequence of his actions. = The=20 murdered father in the first story is no longer on the scene--only his = reputation lingers in the mind of his daughter. The Jewish kind of = heroism is=20 not going to be admired by the new Bolshevik culture, but Lyutov = allows us to=20 hear this posthumous tribute. 

Yes, as Barry intuits, it = was=20 possible to write openly as a Jew, or, at least, that is a freedom = that Babel=20 claimed. I would go even further. It seems to me that Babel felt no = one=20 better than a Jew could prove that the Revolution had actually = worked.=20 True, the Jews living in the territories claimed by Poland were still = as=20 vulnerable as ever to brutality and mistreatment, but someone like = him, who=20 was prepared to identify with the new Communist regime, could testify=20 truthfully to what was going on at the front--testify truthfully about = the=20 Jews and everything else as well. Lyutov's freedom to reveal = everything was=20 the proof of how much had changed since the times of the tsars. =
Yet Babel=20 obviously knows that the Revolution has come at a terrible moral = price, and=20 that the price will be felt by the Jews first and foremost. Look at = the story=20 sequence of "Gedali" and "My First Goose," and "The Rebbe" to see how = he=20 broaches the problem of the moral cost of the Revolution. The Jew has = been=20 allowed to ride with the Cossacks--it is political victory. (Better = than being=20 killed by the Cossacks, which had been their fate before.) But is the = price of=20 this improvement worth it? That's the question Gedali poses. =

Already=20 in the first story, the narrator Lyutov, has a guilty dream. The dream = is=20 about betrayal. Is it clear from the dream who is being betrayed and = who is=20 the betrayer? 

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C4471F.DED6E4C0-- From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 31 21:45:42 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Manja Ressler) Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 16:45:42 -0400 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] reading babel References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040530130538.00b4b410@imap.fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <40BB9976.6080506@xs4all.nl> ruth wisse wrote: > Yet Babel obviously knows that the Revolution has come at a terrible > moral price, and that the price will be felt by the Jews first and > foremost. Look at the story sequence of "Gedali" and "My First Goose," > and "The Rebbe" to see how he broaches the problem of the moral cost > of the Revolution. The Jew has been allowed to ride with the > Cossacks--it is political victory. (Better than being killed by the > Cossacks, which had been their fate before.) But is the price of this > improvement worth it? That's the question Gedali poses. In Gedali's story, the main question is posed in the fragment where Gedali applies a kind of Talmudic reasoning on the Revolution. In his world view, 'good men do not kill', so the Revolution must also be the work of bad men. The narrator, on the other hand, with all his apparent nostalgia (when the story begins, he tells about Shabbat at his grandparents' house) is convinced that blood must be spilled to change the world. For him, Judaism is already 'paradise lost'. For many Jews in his generation, I suppose, at least in Eastern Europe, time had run out on the Mashiach. They felt they had to take matters into their own hands, whether they were Communists, Anarchists, Zionists, or Social-Democrats. I think it would be hard to overestimate the impact this change of attitude has had on our people. It was not just Communism, not just the Revolution which turned peace loving, civilized Jews into active participants in history and people with blood on their hands. Gedali is right, of course, to ask what we win and what we lose by becoming active players. But we also understand the narrator, who is aware that necessary changes are just not going to happen, unless we do something ourselves. From then on, it's compromising between your ethical values and the desire to change the world. Only much later, toward the end of the twentieth century, many Communists became aware of the price they had paid and even worse, had made others pay. Gedali already senses what is to become of this Revolution, and I think the narrator does, too. He does not answer Gedali's questions, but keeps repeating that blood must flow. He seems so determined to bring about change, that he is willing to overlook the obvious. Also, I think, as a writer (and a Jew?) he is looked down on by the soldiers. He wants to prove how tough he is, as I think is the rationale behind his behavior in 'My First Goose'. Which makes it only more interesting that, when he seeks some peace and maybe consolation, he looks for Jewish company, as in the story 'The Rabbi'. It is quite a surprise to me that Babel describes the Jews with so much love. Compared to a man like Trotsky, he doesn't seem to want to get rid of his Jewishness or pretend to distance himself. He is clearly wrestling with his own attachment to 'Jewishness'. Manja From ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org Mon May 31 23:52:07 2004 From: ngfp-bookclub@lists.ngfp.org (Laura Mincer) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:52:07 +0200 Subject: [NGFP-BookClub] Babel' Message-ID: <007001c44761$e76cbf00$551cfc17@xxxxxxxxehv8hf> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C44772.A9971070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sholem Aleykhem to everybody, and please excuse me for my bad English. I am a great admirer of Ruth, whose book on the Modern Jewish Canon I = have just begun to read, and I could not miss the opportunity of trying = to participate to this discussion. I agree with Alba, when she says that Babel is really a continuation of = Sholem Aleykhem; also to me it seems in a way a natural prolongation of = Teyvie's world. Even Lyutov (and Babel's) sense of guilt, of betraying = alternatively his people and his new environment - the Cossacks, the = revolution - is, I think, just another face of Assimilation, so as it = was shaped in the 18 century. The impossibility of belonging. Or the = possibility of belonging here and there. and always with a profound = sense of "Zerrissenheit", of laceration. But what will came next in all = Europe will not have nothing to do with anything experienced before. In = this respect, I do not think that Babel can help us understand Soviet = Jewry in general, because what strikes in Babel' is namely his deep = knowledge of Judaism, his confidence, his intimacy with Judaism - but = his was the LAST generation in the Soviet Union and in all = Central-Eastern Europe to have had a Jewish Kinderstube, to have lived = in a natural Jewish environment. After that, Judaism was only silence, = lies, ignorance and fear. And a profound sense of shame. That Babel, I = think, does never share nor know, but that will became a kind of symbol = for next generations of Eastern European Jewish writers.=20 Hartsige grusn fun Roym,=20 Laura Mincer PS It may be interesting to know that, at least until the end of the = Eighties, Babel was enormously famous in Poland, where apparently he was = considered a Russian anti-soviet writer. A monologue with some of the = Red Cavalry tales was very popular in Polish theatres. The first = performance that my husband, a former actor of the Warsaw Yiddish State = Theatre, showed here in Italy, was a such monologue, staging, among = others, the Rebbe's Son.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C44772.A9971070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sholem Aleykhem to = everybody, and=20 please excuse me for my bad English.

I am a great admirer of = Ruth, whose=20 book on the Modern Jewish Canon I have just begun to read, and I could = not miss=20 the opportunity of trying to participate to this=20 discussion.

I agree with Alba, when = she says=20 that Babel is really a continuation of = Sholem=20 Aleykhem; also to me  it = seems in a=20 way a natural prolongation of Teyvie=92s world. Even Lyutov (and = Babel=92s) sense of=20 guilt, of betraying alternatively his people and his new environment =96 = the=20 Cossacks, the revolution =96 is, I think, just another face of = Assimilation, so as=20 it was shaped in the 18 century. The impossibility of belonging. Or the=20 possibility of belonging here and there=85 and always with a profound = sense of=20 =93Zerrissenheit=94, of laceration. But what will came next in all = Europe will not have =20 nothing to do with anything experienced before. In this respect, = I do not=20 think that Babel can help us understand Soviet Jewry in general, because = what=20 strikes in Babel=92 is namely his deep knowledge of Judaism, his = confidence, his=20 intimacy with Judaism =96 but his was the LAST generation in the Soviet = Union and=20 in all Central-Eastern Europe to have had a Jewish Kinderstube, to have = lived in=20 a natural Jewish environment.  After=20 that, Judaism was only silence, lies, ignorance  and fear. And a profound sense = of shame.=20 That Babel, I=20 think,  does never share = nor know,=20 but that will became a kind of symbol for next  generations of Eastern = European Jewish=20 writers.

Hartsige=20 grusn fun Roym,

Laura=20 Mincer

PS It may be interesting = to know=20 that, at least until the end of the Eighties, Babel was enormously = famous in=20 Poland, where apparently he was considered a Russian anti-soviet writer. = A=20 monologue with some of the Red Cavalry tales was very popular in Polish=20 theatres. The first performance that my husband, a former actor of the = Warsaw=20 Yiddish State Theatre, showed here in Italy, was a such = monologue, staging,=20 among others, the Rebbe=92s Son. =

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